>>You CANNOT add these into a static game console DVD-ROM.>I think that MS would consider this a main factor in producing an Xbox version. From their position, the current method of sourcing addons must appear to be a real mess. Sure, we know where to look for new releases, we get to see what users think of releases before we spend our money, but MS can only consider what they can control.Every new Xbox will have access to Xbox Live, all that's needed is an internet connection. With Live what comes on the DVD need only be a framework to add to. Live has the ability to offer highly specialised content, without even being aware of the subculture that exists here.At the moment I produce local scenery for New Zealand. About half my customers come from overseas, but that is more a result of the current method of distribution -- the reach of the web is indiscriminate. I would love to produce local content for local users, and the Live method of distribution makes a lot more sense than today's hit and miss web solution.The question isn't are they going to forego the PC version in favour of Xbox, but how long will it be before PCs reach the end of their evolution for games.

The problem you face with a console add-on card is simply this. Most consoles are sold with a loss on the hardware part. They make up the loss by selling you the games at high prices. So an add-on card would cost considerably more than the original console.When you look at the most positive FS on X-Box scenario they could do (selected) 3rd party add-ons via the buildin Web connection. You have 20 GB of HDD to fill (If you only use the X-Box for FS). So there is plenty of room. Now if they allow CH to make a yoke and rudder pedal controller set. Guarantee 40 FPS on a HD TV and the only thing they ask in return is buy an X-Box plus the game. Lets say $ 400,- for the X-Box, $ 66,- for the game and $ 200,- for the controller. Then you get the next generation FS at a steal for $600,- ($ 666, when you include the game).Now tell me if the next FS on PC comes out. Do you expect to spend only $ 600,- on the upgrades needed to run the next generation FS?The biggest maybe with the FS on X-Box scenario is the option for 3rd party addons. If they can get that part working the best FS ever will be on X-Box. Sure they will release a port on PC when the X-Box version has been out for a year (like they did with Halo). But the PC version would be targeted at the user upperclass (pit builders, add-on junkies, (freeware) add-on makers (as development tool) etc.FS-X on X-Box 360? I would sell my soul for it ;)

Gang,FS has been around for a very very long time. It has had a great run.With the cancelation of trainsim and combat sim, FS needs to be sort of reborn.What we need is a way of reverse marketing FS. I think that if a new version of FS were to be made available for the console market it would help draw new users over to the PC side as well as revive the product a bit.As an add-on developer we would support such a move.I can tell you that the next version of FS will still be on the PC but we would ALSO like to see it on the console as well as the PC.Such a move if it were to happen, IMHO, would be in addition to the PC not instead of.We can't advance our hobby by complaining here in these forums. We need to draw fresh blood in here and I think by having FS also on the console might help to do that as well as help us as a business.*i'm off to the golf course now, so I'll see you all in a few hours. LOL*

>I'm not sure where the rumor of an X-Box version or X-Box>only MSFS came from so I'll bite...>>I'll put money where my mouth is and bet ANYONE on this forum>good US greenbacks that a FS release for X-Box will be the>biggest flop since Kevin Costner starred in Waterworld...... >EVEN IF MS modeled the default 747,737 and Cessna's in painstaking >detail what about the myriad>of other aircraft, commerical and civil, that we all have on>our harddrives? What about all of the add-on scenery, mesh,>photoreal terrain etc that adds to the realism? What about>the clouds, the utilities, the cockpit add-ons, etc? You>CANNOT add these into a static game console DVD-ROM.......O young grasshopper, the folks that have all of this added realism is likely as than 1% of the consumers that purchase the flight simlulators. As much as we would like to believe that we are "cat's meow" to the MSFS team, we are a very, very small demograhic. Our community could never make FS a commercial success.One more point, go to EB, Game Stop, etc., look at the amount of PC games shelf space vs console games shelf space and then think about 5-10 yrs ago when PC games dominated the shelf space. Trend ... the money is in consoles.... i wish it weren't true as well :-(Vernon

Wrong!The money is not only in PC it

O young grasshopper(s), you indeed did not grab the pebble out of MY hand:The "1%" (as you say) of us who are extreme users requiring add-ons are the users that keep MSFS on our hard drives and utilize it on a regular basis to the exclusion of almost all else. The other "99%" buy it because of the cool box, play with it and then put it away to play Halo 2. I know MANY friends who have purchased MSFS at least once, but they are not concerned with the next release, and neither do they care if MSFS even releases another copy because it was a cool novelty that they use even less than the latest version of Majong!AND, if the hard-core simmers are irrelevant to MS in their profit forcasts then explain why they are HERE on AVSIM soliciting 1% of the users to sign up for their MSFS Q&A / user tracking session? Why not put up a poster at Best Buy where their exposure is far greater to the 99% who apparently would make such a big difference? Now, put MSFS for X-BOX on a shelf next to the latest shooters, sports and car racing titles and MSFS will remain there while the others disappear. I then point you to the MULTIPLE outputs on the console so up to four people can play simulatneously and the push to huge multiplayer environments. How many people are going to invite friends over for a night of pizza, beer, and a rousing marathon multiplayer round of Flight Simulator :-lol ! It ain't gonna happen. You seem to think, as others in this thread do, that porting MSFS will somehow help to sell X-Box but you also fail to realize that the MSFS segment is also very small compared to the Halo 2, NASCAR, NBA 2005 segments. Those titles sell X-Box units, MSFS for X-Box would not. I can see it now: DUDE, I'm sick of playing Halo 2, put in Flight Simulator...I bet that I can land the 767 better than you can! Yeah, okay.Mike T.

Yes, but all of the consoles now are "multimedia appliances" They all play DVD's, etc. So the 360 will be able to stream video, etc, but the root core of what it is, is nothing more than a game console designed to open a can of whoopa$$ on Playstation 2 and Gamecube. Having a plain vanilla version of FS running smoothly at 480i resolution will be horrible. Sure the 360 will be able to run at 1080i HDTV resolution, but you are forgetting that FAR, FAR, FAR more people own PC's with cheap monitors capable of running high resolution than own HDTV's! So, the next complaint will be, "I had to spend $1,200 on a new HDTV" rather than I had to spend $1,200 on new PC hardware". Halo 2 looks okay at 480i resolution, MSFS does NOT (I know, I've tried). And what do you mean that the PC hardware is "better"? The technology is already here, I point you my pc specs below, its just a matter of buying it.So at the end of the day:X-Box 360...$300MSFS for X-Box 360...$5454" 1080i HDTV...$1,300Having you wife unplug the X-Box 360 while you are on final approach so that she can watch her favorite soap opera...PRICELESS!!!! :-lolRegards,Mike T.

How about designing an X-box with UPGRADEABLE hardware option? MS can have two versions of X-BOX - one with fixed non-upgradeable hardware (hence costing less) and one with upgradeable CPU and video card options (probably costing more).This way, the X-Box can be a perfectly flexible gaming console with specific programming requirements which are standardized and any FS developer will have to abide by these strict requirements in order to make add-ons for X-box FS. This will reduce if not eliminate performance hits from things like high-res 32-bit bitmap sceneries and use a more frame-rate friendly bitmap (analogous to GMAX) and also eliminate any major bugs in the program for the design of each aircraft will have to conform to Microsoft's standard code. Add to this the peripheral support for flight yokes, pedals, throttle quadrants (i.e. USB devices and available drivers built right into the X-box operating system) and you got a near-perfect gaming console fit for any need.And finally-STABILITY. With all hardware and software standardized, you'll have none of the headaches of PC's crashing, incompatibility with RAM etc... This is also great for payware developers because ANY product they make for X-BOX will be guaranteed to work with it without frame rate hits as the hardware in everyone's X-Box will be identical - so no need to worry about whether or not you have a system fast enough to run the add-ons.What do you think?John

I think we are all reading too much into the Xbox360 specs.Yes lets say FS is on the Xbox 360, great. but then comes the next Gen Pc hardware with Dual Cores, SLI Dual cores etc. You will be weaping then. Also dont forget although the 360 sounds like a PC, dont think for one minute it will actually be one.So when the XBOX360 is FS is still looking the same 1 year later, I can assure you the pc version will look very different.MS dont want you guys getting under the hood of 360's it will be a case of put the disc in and play, yes it might be more stable and yes it may run at 60fps out of the box. However Im sure in the deepest of deepest of your hearts its clearly obvious the you just cant beat the PC platform for MS.I would say the stability of FS on a PC is bad not due to hardware and compatibilty, but due to the fact that MS need to re-program the Engine so that it can cope with what "US hardcore Simmers" throw at it.I would alomost gurantee that if none of us put any addons in to our FS you would not see one post about CTD's or crashes.PS I am not Anti X-BOX 360, its on my Christmas List, How ever FS-X is not for me, + I dont have a HDTV and here in the UK they are a bit of a rip off.Jason

John:There is ALREADY an upgradeable version of X-Box that allows CPU and videocard upgrades...its called the PC.Further, you can't have "perfectly flexible and standarized" (that is an oxymoron) because then again, what you have is a PC. Also, there are already strict requirements for development for the PC, within Windows, and even for MSFS. All add-ons are technically supposed to be developed in GMAX and conform to the released SDKs, but some 3rd party developers don't bother for a myriad of reasons. As far as stability goes, have you actually played XBOX? It crashes and it locks up and that does go for all of the consoles that I have bought for my son, i.e. XBOX, Playstation 2, Game Cube. None of them are 100% stable. As a side note: MSFS out of the box is very stable and will crash no more than a gameconsole title. The problem is that consoles are not made for you to install games on a HD for later add-ons (as one does on a PC). Everything you need to play must be contained within the Game DVD. Also, load-times are slow per area because they must be decompressed to the onboard HD according to the level you are playing (much like the option of minimal install for MSFS we have now requiring the CD to be in place for each scenery area in which you are flying).There are currently HUGE add-ons available for PC versions of Doom, Quake, and other first person shooters that allow one to change the maps, weapons and player skins, effectively changing the whole game envionment. Those add-ons are not available for the console variants of the exact same games. To MY knowledge X-360 will be no different so the idea of 3rd party add-ons is going to be moot once X-360 is finally released.I've contributed to this thread more than intended so I do apologize. Just be careful what you wish for because as Mr. Spock said: "Sometimes having is not as good as wanting, it is not often logical, but it IS often true."Regards,Mike T.

Well Mike,If your argument didn't win me over to your point of view, that last quote from Spock definitely did! :))No I have not used X-Box and frankly, I'm surprised that it does lock up. But what about the frequency of lockups in XBox versus a PC? Also, when I said "perfectly flexible and standardized", I meant upgradeable and standardized, really. The point it, as you put it, GMAX may be a standard but it CANNOT be enforced on a PC whereas I believe the more "rigid" platform /OS of the XBOX, it may be possible to arrange that add-ons for FS2004 which are NOT GMAX won't work in XBOX... just a thought for I'm not a programmer.John"K-plah!"

There won

>......... The "1%" (as you say) of us who are extreme users requiring>add-ons are the users that keep MSFS on our hard drives and>utilize it on a regular basis to the exclusion of almost all>else. The other "99%" buy it because of the cool box, play>with it and then put it away to play Halo 2.......>AND, if the hard-core simmers are irrelevant to MS in their>profit forcasts then explain why they are HERE on AVSIM>soliciting 1% of the users to sign up for their MSFS Q&A />user tracking session? Why not put up a poster at Best Buy>where their exposure is far greater to the 99% who apparently>would make such a big difference? ......... >You seem to think, as others in this thread do, that porting>MSFS will somehow help to sell X-Box but you also fail to>realize that the MSFS segment is also very small compared to>the Halo 2, NASCAR, NBA 2005 segments. Those titles sell>X-Box units, MSFS for X-Box would not. Grasshopper,You are bang on! I don't believe that MSFS will sell more xbox's in and of itself. However, I do believe that MS is hedging its bets. The PC game market is no doubt loosing share to the console genre. MS is simply anticipating that in near future that will be able to totally shift focus to the xbox platform. MS's goal is to create a lifestyle around the xbox. Gaming, Music, DVD's, Photo slide shows ... all from one gotta have device.I believe that people will always buy the latest version of MSFS ... and play it occassionally. This has always been true. But it does not change the fact that the bulk of MSFS sells are to the occassional user.Fact that MS asked us .. the "extreme users" is no different than how it develops any of its software packages. Take Microsoft Office, the package is way more powerful that the typical user needs or knows how to manipulate. This does not stop MS for improving its products from version to version. Its marketing .. (Tide has been "new and improved" for every yr of my 40 yr life) Microsoft is truly all about making better software. Sooooo .. its not odd for them to query the "power user" to improve the products that will be sold to the masses.* Grasshopper is a trademark of Vern .. and can not be duplicated or used without the expressed written consent of Vern :DVern

XBox with HDTV (is this written correctly?)-- really cool! ;-)Only Problem: what do you think how many users of FS10 will have access to HDTV (i. e. in how many countries will HDTV be available or common in the near future? How many users can effort an HDTV) I would say the percentage is in the single digits, maybe in the teens but not higher.Some allways forget the FS market is not only the USA. E. g. in Europe 95 % of the countries still have PAL or SECAM standard, only a view pay TV companies offer HDTV on their networks, thus HDTV sets are harldy available here, and if they are, they cost lots of money. An who will buy a HDTV set only for FS? ;-)And the possible resolution of FS on Xbox without HDTV is ridiculous.Wolfgang

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