Hey, I'm currently 507 nm out from JFK, managed to take off from Heathrow, keep my triple 777 in the sky during heavy turbalance (ASN - was the most tense 5 minutes I've had) and perform a fuel dump for the first time. I'm using the last leg of the cruise to check over the approach chart to JFK, I admit it's the first time using one, however I get the jist of it and I've entered the correcg height restrictions and speeds into the FMS. I'm guessing the fmc alter course and tracks as necessary or is this something as the pilot I should do? I've done the tutorial autoland, however as I am lookig to dive deeper into the craft I'm getting a little tetchy with reading a chart. I've flown a couple with GA aircraft that have required my inputs to manage and capture the glidescope, however I have never attempted this within a jet liner. If the FMC does indeed manage the necessary tracks then it's a huge decrease in my work load, however if it is something I have to manually do, what would be the best way to do so given the size and speeds involved? May seem like a simple question with a simple answer but I want to cover all bases. Thanks

In the tutorial, you should have noticed how the system operated as you flew the STAR and then the ILS into OMDB.  Flying into KJFK will be somewhat different in that the STARS generally end in a VECTORS segment and do not connect directly to an approach.  Depending on direction of traffic flow this can be a minor issue or a biggy if they are landing 13L/R.  You can get an idea of how the traffic is vectored by watching the traffic on flightaware.com... EGLL-KJFK has many flights and is easy to pick one as an example.

 

Come up with a specific arrival and approach and I'm sure the folks around here can provide tips on how to navigate the terminal area.

 

If the FMC does indeed manage the necessary tracks then it's a huge decrease in my work load, however if it is something I have to manually do, what would be the best way to do so given the size and speeds involved?

 

Whether or not the FMC handles everything is dependent on the procedure. Unfortunately for you, JFK is primarily an airport that uses vectors at the end of its STARs. As Dan mentioned, the tutorial shows you pretty much exactly how to get everything done for you in terms of selecting a STAR and then linking it to an arrival (this case is the exact opposite of JFK where there are no vectors between the end of the STAR and beginning of the approach).

 

As far as your understanding of approaches goes, it would probably do you some good to have a look online for some chart lessons. You should not be hand-entering anything on that chart into the, though. The only thing you should be doing is selecting it on the DEP/ARR page. The aircraft will handle the rest.

Thanks guys, I've been back through the tutorial to have a look at anything I will have missed, in regards to the vectors into JFK using the Robber1 star, I've noticed in the FMC, I will fly; over and away from the airport then track back around onto final approach for runway 04L. Is that what is meant by Vectoring?. Thanks

 

 

I've entered the correcg height restrictions and speeds into the FMS. I'm guessing the fmc alter course and tracks as necessary or is this something as the pilot I should do?

 

To be clear (as I'm sure you know, but for the benefit of others) it is always your responsibility as the pilot to put the aircraft where you want it. How you do that, of course, is up to you -- and the FMS is a great tool to help you out, but you should always regard it as a tool to be manipulated for your purposes rather than a black box that does the job for you -- and if it starts doing something you don't expect or want, you should always be ready to reduce the automation and make sure the aircraft is pointing where you want it to point (which might mean going from LNAV/VNAV to HDG SEL/VS or in some cases it might mean taking the automatics out altogether and hand-flying).

 

Having said that -- having entered the STAR (ideally from the FMC database) and checked it against the chart, the computer will very happily fly what you tell it to. There are caveats -- the laws of physics still apply, so if you try and make it fly around a tight corner at 330KIAS it'll more than likely go wider than the track intended by the procedure designer and unless there are speeds programmed in to the procedure (there aren't always) you will need to manage this yourself with judicious use of SPD INTV. Likewise, VNAV is a useful tool but it is only as good as the information you give it and if actual conditions (winds, temperature etc) are different to those you have fed it earlier in the flight its calculations may be incorrect. Likewise, if the lateral path in the FMC differs significantly from the actual path you are taking (either because of an input error or because of ATC vectors) the VNAV path will be wrong -- so it is always important to be error-checking (and sanity-checking) the VNAV path and track mileage to ensure that you are following the right path and managing your energy appropriately.

 

"Vectors" are when ATC gives you headings and altitudes to fly. This is most commonly done in the final stages of the approach (from memory, I think JFK tend to start vectoring from around ROBER) in order to sequence aircraft efficiently. However, vectoring may also be carried out en-route or in the departure phase, again for the same reasons.

 

If (in the sim environment) there is no ATC, you have two options -- you can 'self-vector' -- effectively emulate the sort of path ATC would vector you on in order to place yourself on a 10-12NM final -- or you can fly the full ILS procedure if one is published, which will normally be the sort of path you describe (often from overhead a beacon on the airfield, outbound for a certain time/distance and then making some form of course reversal in order to line up with the final approach). A detailed explanation of this is probably beyond the scope of this forum -- it's best to read up on instrument procedures to find out more.

 

Speaking personally, I tend to "self-vector" when flying in to large airfields as this is a better reflection of reality (in real life, you can normally only have one aircraft carrying out the course reversal procedure at a time -- whilst this is fine at small airfields, you can imagine what it would do to the landing rate somewhere like JFK). Simply put yourself in to HDG SEL/VS and position yourself, as I say, roughly at a 10-12 NM final, 3000ft out at 160-180KIAS, at which point you can turn to intercept the localiser (normally ATC will turn you on to a closing heading that is about 30 degrees from the localiser inbound course). You can then arm LOC, and once you have captured the localiser arming APP will then capture the glideslope. It is generally considered bad form to intercept the glideslope before you are established on the localiser, as the terrain clearance is only guaranteed whilst you are on the localiser itself -- many aircraft will simply not permit the APP button to be armed unless the localiser has already been captured.

 

For airfields where the STAR brings you on to the final approach, you can certainly let the FMC fly this. However, I would sound a note of caution in that many operators forbid capturing the localiser in LNAV mode (i.e. flying in LNAV, arming LOC/APP and letting it capture). The reason for this is because at shallow intercept angles, you may actually not capture the localiser at all and instead will find yourself flying 'alongside' the ILS in LNAV and VNAV, which is clearly not a desirable (or necessarily safe) situation.

 

Hope that's helpful!

 

 

The reason for this is because at shallow intercept angles, you may actually not capture the localiser at all and instead will find yourself flying 'alongside' the ILS in LNAV

In almost 5000 flights in FSX using the PMDG 744, MD-11, NGX, T7, CS 752, 752, and 763 I never seen this happen.

I don't doubt you -- I have, however, in the 747, and although I don't currently have the documentation to hand I am almost certain that at least on the 767 and 747, Boeing recommends against the use of LNAV to intercept the localiser.

 

I will have a look through the books later and try to find the reference for you.

Boeing must not have much confidence in pilots. All you need to do is look at the FMA and see whether is says VOR/LOC (NGX), LOC (T7), or VNAV. It's plain as day if you have captured the localizer or are still in VNAV.

 

 

The reason for this is because at shallow intercept angles, you may actually not capture the localiser at all and instead will find yourself flying 'alongside' the ILS in LNAV and VNAV, which is clearly not a desirable (or necessarily safe) situation.

 

That sounds like an AFCAD problem, especially if that happens to you on different aircraft. That's never happened to me, but I also never use LNAV for ILS capture.

Boeing must not have much confidence in pilots. All you need to do is look at the FMA and see whether is says VOR/LOC (NGX), LOC (T7), or VNAV. It's plain as day if you have captured the localizer or are still in VNAV.

Of course, but there have been plenty of incidents through history that have been caused by pilots not noticing or realising what mode the AFDS is in. Busy period, lots of ATC instructions, frequency changes, reconfiguring the aircraft... you've armed LOC/APP, the aircraft's turned on to the correct heading, the LLZ bars are centred (or nearly centred) -- there's potentially a lot of distractions and a lot of data to reinforce an erroneous assumption the AFDS has in fact captured the LLZ. That doesn't excuse poor FMA discipline, but it's a hole in the cheese.

 

I still haven't had a chance to look at the documentation I have on my home PC, but a bit of searching has revealed at least one Middle Eastern 747 operator's documentation which states clearly that HDG SEL should be used to intercept the localizer and not LNAV. I have also turned up a slideshow on the 737 automatics which points out that whilst LOC capture is possible in HDG SEL, LNAV or CWS R mode, the only mode in which LOC capture is assured is HDG SEL as any nav inaccuracy may result in parallelling the localizer in LNAV and company SOP on the matter should prevail. As I say, I'm 99.9% sure that a Big Airline strongly recommends (if not mandates) use of HDG SEL to intercept the localizer on at least the 767 and 747 fleets for the same reason.

 

I was probably wrong in saying Boeing recommend against LNAV to intercept the localizer; however, I stand by my statement thst many operators discourage the practice, and for good reason. I'm not saying that it can't be done, or even that it won't work OK most of the time (especially in FSX where navigation accuracy & ILS beams are always perfect), but it is not (in my view and the view of many airlines) good practice.

Back on topic: 

 

in regards to the vectors into JFK using the Robber1 star, I've noticed in the FMC, I will fly; over and away from the airport then track back around onto final approach for runway 04L.

 

No.  You notice ROBER1 STAR routes you to the JFK VOR and ends there.  That's exactly what the FMS is going to do to you but realistically ATC is going to give you a heading and altitude (vectors) to fly to get the pointy end of the airplane pointed at the right runway.  My last journey on the ROBER1 was when aircraft were landing 04R... as displayed on the flightaware website.  A realistic self-vector in that case is to turn south and descent on a downwind until about east of COL roughly following V44 then a turn to base and an intercept course for final.  Piece of cake after you've done it for decades.

 

You have to start somewhere, so maybe picking some easier airspaces to navigate than New York would be a good start.  Find charts on line, save them in folders and create your own library and really dig in.  Have fun.

That doesn't excuse poor FMA discipline, but it's a hole in the cheese.

If the jerks don't scan the instruments, they deserve what they get.

Of course, but there have been plenty of incidents through history that have been caused by pilots not noticing or realising what mode the AFDS is in. Busy period, lots of ATC instructions, frequency changes

 

You probably  find  that's the co pilots  job to change the freq  and handle  the atc  comms whilst  the captain  flies  the aircraft

Thanks for all the heads up and help; Kyle, Dan and Simon. Guess I aren't nearly as well versed as I thought I were. I've been able to do a few easier routes; I.e London to Manchester and Amsterdam to Rome, I've noticed the FMC has correctly vectored for the final approach so I assumed the same would be for JFK. Probably explains why my passengers were swimming earlier than anticipated. The help as always is appreciated, at least in my aimless flying/crashing and diverting I've figured out some of the more intricate aspects of the triple 777. 

 

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