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FlyingOnSundays

FMC inserts vectors and (420) in the middle of my route.

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I was planning a flight to KDFW from KJFK, and while I was programming my routes page, a DIRECT (VECTOR) and DIRECT (420) appeared in the middle of the plan, along with a flight discontinuity line. I couldnt delete it, and when I put in the rest of my route, they stayed in the same spot. So two things here, 1. How do I stop it from inserting these again? 2. If it does, how do I delete them. No matter what I do, it just says invalid delete.

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Are you doing a SID departure or a Stars arrival with a Vector in it ? That's normal.  Per example, Most departure in CYVR (Vancouver) are vector departure. You takeoff toward a heading and wait for ATC to give you instruction to resume your flight to your next waypoint.  The same could happen for an arrival. Some airport only have vector arrival in order to direct traffic. Your approach is vector until you get the ok from the ATC to head towards the runway.

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I do dtw jfk also.

DTW has departure vectors... but can be removed you are not wanting to do it.

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The FMC is obviously trying to send you a cryptic message by posting that seemingly random numerical sequence "420" on the CDU screen, while blocking you every frantic attempt to delete the code, whose significance will shortly manifest itself to me, since I have preemptively donned my conical thinking cap to tackle this conundrum.

 

For the record, I tried but failed to stop my restless fingers from typing the foregoing response to your predicament, meaning of course that I am perilously close to being drawn into The Vortex.

 

Speaking of which AAAAAaaaaaaaaaargh !

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I don't think the OP is talking about a SID or STAR. He seems to indicate that it's somewhere in the middle of the plan. That's why I asked him to post the route is was trying to enter into the CDU. I looked on Flightaware and there is one routing that has a strange waypoint in it, KM45M, and I wonder if that's causing an issue.

 

Does anyone know why I cannot paste text into a post? I wanted to post the entire route but I've never been able to paste into a post here on the AVSIM forum.

 

Dave

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"I looked on Flightaware and there is one routing that has a strange waypoint in it, KM45M, and I wonder if that's causing an issue."

 

Post the route (dtw-jfk) you found with vectors in it.

 

 

 

 

"Does anyone know why I cannot paste text into a post?"

Use CTRL-V


"how do I delete them. No matter what I do, it just says invalid delete."

 

Line select another waypoint over the VECTORS ....

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1. How do I stop it from inserting these again? 2. If it does, how do I delete them. No matter what I do, it just says invalid delete.

 

You shouldn't stop it from doing this in the future. If you're loading a SID/STAR and it puts these entries in there, you should leave them in there until cleared beyond them.

 

Vector, altitude, and discontinuity pseudo-points are in there for a good reason. It wouldn't be right for a nav data coder to code the departure without these points. Without them, the pilot could put the plane on LNAV and VNAV and the plane would not follow the proper course.

 

Instead, the coder should (and has) coded this departure to force the pilot to address the (VECTOR) leg (which is part of EVERY departure at DTW) in either HDG SEL, or by hand flying it. The (420) is in there as a conditional waypoint likely to handle the awkward implementation of the SID. The SID is odd in that the controller may vector you onto a radial, or give you direct, so my bet is the (420) is there to handle the possibility that you may be vectored onto the radial.

 

You cannot delete any of these - (VECTORS), (conditionals), or DISCONTINUIT[ies] - but you can select a fix after all of that and place it above those points (as if you'd been given a direct-to instruction.

 

 

 


I don't think the OP is talking about a SID or STAR. He seems to indicate that it's somewhere in the middle of the plan.

 

Doubt it. (VECTOR) legs don't get loaded into plans - only SID/STAR.

 

 

 


I looked on Flightaware and there is one routing that has a strange waypoint in it, KM45M, and I wonder if that's causing an issue.

 

Nope. That's an NRS point. It's a grid system to all for more free-form RNAV routing (basically, like just using Lat/Lon points without having to type all of the numbers).

 

K for K airspace (mainland USA). M for Memphis Center. 45 for 45th parallel. M for the latitude identifier. In this case, this is a waypoint in Kentucky.

 

As an instrument pilot, you should be familiar with these. Though they may have been implemented after your training/checkride, it's always good to stay up on the advances in the NAS. If you're ever flying longer routes, they free up some routing for you if you're /G.

 

Here's an FAA PPT on it.

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HI Kyle,

 

Sorry for appearing to be an idiot. Yes I got my instrument rated back in 1996 and I don't think those were implemented. Due to health reasons I'm unable to keep up with my real/world flying anymore. So there are probably a few things I'm not up on.

 

The OP did mention that the anomaly was inserted in the middle of the plan. That was why I guessed that it might not be a SID or STAR.

 

I'll remove the references to my real world certs and thanks for reminding me why, most of the time, it's better just not to post at all.

 

Best regards,

Dave

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I don't think the OP is talking about a SID or STAR. He seems to indicate that it's somewhere in the middle of the plan. That's why I asked him to post the route is was trying to enter into the CDU. I looked on Flightaware and there is one routing that has a strange waypoint in it, KM45M, and I wonder if that's causing an issue.

 

Does anyone know why I cannot paste text into a post? I wanted to post the entire route but I've never been able to paste into a post here on the AVSIM forum.

 

Dave

 

Correct, I was not talking about a sid or star. Literally, in the midddle of the flight plan, as I was stepping through it, it stopped with a 420 and VECTORS, than my flight plan picked up some 100 miles later. It was very strange. I noticed them on the RTE page before I started entering my waypoints. As I entered my waypoints, about the first half were in front of the VECTOR, and the other half behind it.

 

You shouldn't stop it from doing this in the future. If you're loading a SID/STAR and it puts these entries in there, you should leave them in there until cleared beyond them.

 

Vector, altitude, and discontinuity pseudo-points are in there for a good reason. It wouldn't be right for a nav data coder to code the departure without these points. Without them, the pilot could put the plane on LNAV and VNAV and the plane would not follow the proper course.

 

Instead, the coder should (and has) coded this departure to force the pilot to address the (VECTOR) leg (which is part of EVERY departure at DTW) in either HDG SEL, or by hand flying it. The (420) is in there as a conditional waypoint likely to handle the awkward implementation of the SID. The SID is odd in that the controller may vector you onto a radial, or give you direct, so my bet is the (420) is there to handle the possibility that you may be vectored onto the radial.

 

You cannot delete any of these - (VECTORS), (conditionals), or DISCONTINUIT[ies] - but you can select a fix after all of that and place it above those points (as if you'd been given a direct-to instruction.

 

 

 

 

Doubt it. (VECTOR) legs don't get loaded into plans - only SID/STAR.

 

 

 

 

Nope. That's an NRS point. It's a grid system to all for more free-form RNAV routing (basically, like just using Lat/Lon points without having to type all of the numbers).

 

K for K airspace (mainland USA). M for Memphis Center. 45 for 45th parallel. M for the latitude identifier. In this case, this is a waypoint in Kentucky.

 

As an instrument pilot, you should be familiar with these. Though they may have been implemented after your training/checkride, it's always good to stay up on the advances in the NAS. If you're ever flying longer routes, they free up some routing for you if you're /G.

 

Here's an FAA PPT on it.

 

 

I understand, and I know about vectors and altitudes in sids and stars, and my arrival and departure had them, and they were in the right place, but these got inserted literally IN THE MIDDLE of my flight plan.

 

I restarted the sim, and the same thing happened, here is the route I flew:  RBV J230 SAAME J6 LIT FEWWW SEEVR1

 

However, on the RTE and LEGS page, this is waht the route looked like: (JFK1 - VECTORS to robinsville) (J230 SAAME) (DIRECT 420) (J6 LIT) (DIRECT VECTORS)  (DIRECT FEWWW) SEEVR1

 

(Parentheses indicate the two are on the same line)

 

 

 

 

I cannot delete those 420 and VECTORS, they are just there :(

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Sorry for appearing to be an idiot. Yes I got my instrument rated back in 1996 and I don't think those were implemented. Due to health reasons I'm unable to keep up with my real/world flying anymore. So there are probably a few things I'm not up on.

 

Totally understand. Sorry to hear that. The NAS has changed pretty drastically from even when I was working on NextGen a couple years ago (NRS waypoints included). My aim wasn't to say "I can't believe you don't know about these;" rather, it was meant to say if you aren't familiar with them, you should become familiar with them. I added that extra "particularly if you're flying long routes" to emphasize that it's somewhat of a niche thing, and you might not even need to know about it (though it's always good to keep up with NAS changes as a pilot, just in case).

 

 

I cannot delete those 420 and VECTORS, they are just there :(

 

Very odd. Are you loading this from a route file, or is this popping up after you hand-enter the route?

 

Also: full names in every post, please.

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Agree, that looks like something a route generator would create.  I've even seen PFPX do odd things on occasion up in those northern Canadian routes.

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I got the route off of FlightAware, and was entering it myself (Did not download it). When I go to the RTE page, after I have plugged in my departure, I start to add the waypoints, and as soon as I put in J230 (before I plug in SAAME), a DCT 420 and DCT VECTORS appear. I continue to type in my route BEFORE the directs, and still, about half of the route ends up after it (on the rte page). I program my arrival without any problems, but I cannot delete the two anomalies. Further more, after testing, I cannot bypass it or select a direct on the legs page, until AFTER I have passed both of those points.

 

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL65/history/20150319/2015Z/KJFK/KDFW

 

RBV J230 SAAME J6 BWG J6 LIT FEWWW SEEVR1

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I put mballew's plan (KJFK RBV J230 SAAME J6 LIT FEWWW SEEVR1 KDFW) into FSbuild ... it looked ok.

 

And the resulting CO RTE loaded ok in 737NG FMC.

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I put mballew's plan (KJFK RBV J230 SAAME J6 LIT FEWWW SEEVR1 KDFW) into FSbuild ... it looked ok.

 

And the resulting CO RTE loaded ok in 737NG FMC.

 

Hmmm, I will re-install the 737. Maybe it could be my navdata?

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I have Navigraph Navdata Cycle 1503 for PMDG and FSbuild.

 

If you want to check the route that FSbuild did (to check for accuracy) I could post a screenshot.


I managed to cut and paste the FSBuild log for a screenshot (hope it is readable):



FSB-3_zpsol8uenn0.jpg
 

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I got the route off of FlightAware, and was entering it myself (Did not download it). When I go to the RTE page, after I have plugged in my departure, I start to add the waypoints, and as soon as I put in J230 (before I plug in SAAME), a DCT 420 and DCT VECTORS appear. I continue to type in my route BEFORE the directs, and still, about half of the route ends up after it (on the rte page). I program my arrival without any problems, but I cannot delete the two anomalies. Further more, after testing, I cannot bypass it or select a direct on the legs page, until AFTER I have passed both of those points.

 

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL65/history/20150319/2015Z/KJFK/KDFW

 

RBV J230 SAAME J6 BWG J6 LIT FEWWW SEEVR1

Almost sounds like your Nav Data might be corrupt. Are you using current Navigraph or Aerosoft AIRACS? If so, might want to reinstall the database.

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