Dear Flightsimmers,As probably a lot of you readers know, I am a designer of FS addons, mainly .xml gauges and related stuff, which is for 99.9 % freeware. Like Groundhandling, GPWS, CarrierOperationPackage, the ProjectFokker addon, etc.As you can also verify by seaching for the files rcb* in the library of major flightsim site like AVSIM and Flightsim.Now, IN MY OPINION, my copyrights on at least one of these gauges have been deliberately violated by a company that designs and sells payware aircraft. See below.Before I explain in detail, I want to have a few things clear.1. Since I DO realise that there is no point in making accusations that can not be verified by your as a reader, I will try to stick to verifyable facts. And allow you to form your own opinion.2. Being a freeware designer, formal legal procedures are not (as you can imagine) an option for me in view of the costs; hence the only possibility I have, is using forums like these to expose the behavior of this company. Which is not only in my interrest, but in the interrest of everyone that creates Flightsim addons.3. Obviously I have tried to straighten this issue with this company before making it public. But after 4 days of interaction via Email, they are not willing to come to a private, mutual agreeable solution; or even admit my claim is true. Instead, they are trying to hide behind a lot of legal mumbo-jumbo.4. And most importantly (since I don't want this post to be locked because of unverifyable statements and slander): should you decide to react, PLEASE KEEP IT DECENT and STICK TO THE ISSUE AT HAND.Past experiances YOU might have with this company (and I do have them as well) are not relevant to this particular case.5. And to the MODERATORS of this forum: PLEASE, do not LOCK this thread. I have Tom's permission to post it as-is.But of course, feel free to remove replies in this thread, if/when it gets out of hand. Now, what has happened ?Being a fan of Harrier aircraft, I am flying Adam Preece's freeware Harrier-GR7 (released in april 2004, on at least on of the major flightsim sites), which IMO is a very nicely modelled plane. Since I felt that especially the VSTOL operation of this aircraft could be improved, I decided to create a gauge solution which would improve this VSTOL behavior a lot. After lots of spent hours and tweaking (with lots of help of another Harrier fanatic: Alejandro Villas), I published this work as an freeware addon to Adam's Harrier, in June 2004 as file RCBHC-15.ZIP , onto various major flightsim sites (like AVSIM and Flightsim). Which you can freely download yourself.For the experts among you: since FS2004 doesn't support "vertical" thrust for jet-engines, one way of getting the desired results (maybe the only way ?) is to apply extreme thrust combined with extreme drag. Now, to preserve the flight characteristics in normal flight, and to solve the side-effects at very slow forward speed (like instability and wind-sensitivity) of such a solution , I applied a lot of technical "tricks"; e.g. use of AfterburnerThrust, addition of drag-free flapsettings, trim control, etc, which are automatically switched by a gauge depending on the stage of flight.Last week (July 2nd 2005), a company called "DSB Design" (www.dsbdesign.com) have published a new payware Harrier product, supposed created by a subsidiary company called "Sigma Simulation Product", of which V1.00 is currently being sold via both DSB Design (via DSB Direct), as well as via Simmmarket. Being attracted to this product because of its good reviews, including the appraised "unique flight model featuring STOL capabilities down to under a 10 knot forward speed", I decided to have a closer look at all the (publicly available) commercial info on this product.And behold, my ENTIRE solution (gauges, flaps definition, the use of afterburner, trimcontrol, etc) is an EXACT copy of the solution I created and published as freeware last year in archive RCBHC-15.zip; which I was able to "prove" with the kind cooperation of several flightsimmers that have bought this new Harrier product, and who compared the solution in their installed version with the one I created/published.And, rest assured, without my knowledge and consent.Every attempt I made with DSB Design to clear this "issue", failed because DSB Design (i.c. it's "representitive" David Brice) claims that:- "DSB Design" has a confidentiality agreement with "Sigma Simulation Products", and, without a court order, they cannot reveal the identity of the "contributor" that created this part of the Harrier product.- Alhough the solution and .xml gauge code in question seem to show some simularities, it is still possible (and even "probable") that it was created independantly.- My claim of it being an exact copy cannot be verified legally because my code (i.e. RCBHC-15.ZIP) is only published on a private forum and NOT available for public viewing. Moreover, my Copyright on this gauge code (which is allways clearly stated in my gauges) is not recorded with a Patents Office.Plus a lot of more ...... statements.I.o.w: DSB Design doesnot recognise my claim, and I have no way of contacting the alleged designer of "Sigma Simulation Products".Although there is a lot more to be revealed and I have a very good idea how and why "DSB Design" operates as it does (a.o. with "other contributors"), I realise that, since I cannot substantiate this with hard evidence, I will refrain from making comments on that. However, I can "prove" my claim of Copyright Violation in this case, especially to current owners of this "Sigma Simulation Products" Harrier. That is, IMO this is "evidence" enough (see below).At this time, I will not publish the code included in the "Sigma Simulation Products" Harrier (for comparison), since then I will be accused of having "illegally published Copyrighted information". :-(But for owners of this Harrier product:(NOTE: .xml files and .cfg are just printable text files that can be viewed with Windows Notepad).1. In your Gauges folder (or local panel folder) you will note a file "Harrier_GR7.cab".2. Open this .cab file (usually by double clicking it).3. Extract the included file "VSTOL controller.xml" to a temporary folder.4. From my archive RCBHC-15.zip, extract the file "HarrierVSTOLControlF10.xml"5. Open both these .xml files with Notepad, and compare them.What you will notice:Except for the COMMENT section (which includes, as usual, my design info and copyright statement, and has been removed for obvious reasons), the .xml contents of these files are EXACTLY identical; including ALL spacing and even the Version number.And more:1. Compare files "Effect Controller.xml" (from "Harrier_GR7.cab") and "HarrierEffectControlF10.xml" (from my archive).Observation: same story.Note: this EffectController gauge controls, a.o. the back/down smoke effect from the nozzles;although it appears that, by default, this functionality is disabled in your panel.cfg and aircraft.cfg files.2. Compare the aircraft.cfg files of your Harrier with the one included in my archive RCBHC-15.zip, and observe the sections Flaps.1, Flaps.2 and Flaps.3; these are the flapsdefinitions I created and tweaked (and are needed for the gauge), that provide for the Flaps/Nozzles behaviour needed to improve this VSTOL operation and reduce windsensitivity.Again, EXACTLY the same.Now, if you have verified the above, I am absolutely convinced that you will agree with me that the chances of these two solutions having been created and coded by two developers INDEPENDANTLY of eachother, is 0 %.I.o.w.: either I am lying, or the "anonymous" creator (who's name will, as they state, not be revealed by DSB Design) of this new Harrier product is. Since I won't even exclude the possibility that someone will, as a result of my claim, now starts accusing ME of "violation of copyrights" (i.o.w. claim that I have copied HIS code): I will gladly have at least two independant, other people confirm that I have in fact created this solution, in a number of interactions, tweaking and testing with them.On the other hand, I am sure that a lot of people using any of my other freeware addons (especially other .xml gauge designers or knowledgable people), will be able to vouch for the authenticity of my original RCBGH-15.ZIP archive, since I have a very distinct and precise way of coding, lay-outing and commenting all my gauges. You may judge for yourself.But if someone would get away with such a simple and (IMO) clear case of piracy, this is (for me, and probably a lot of other freeware designers) the limit, and would certainly make me decide to move on to another hobby :-(Best regards,Rob BarendregtThe Netherlands

Dear Rob,Wow, what a mouthful! and what a huge amount of facts to digest. If, sir, you are correct with your statemtnts, and I dare say, only an total idiot would put all this in a forum atmosphere and NOT have his facts straight -- then it is a damned shame that because of lack of funding, you cannot do anything to prosecute these two individuals. Where is justice when you need it?First, I'm not a fan of piracy; although one who steals someone else's work deserves to have his work stolen -- just a statement guys, lets not all go out and hack DSB -- however, if you have had this conversation and SimMarket continues to sell this product, knowing that there may be a question of ownership to some files, then I find them as guilty as the other parties involved.To me, If I were in the publishing business, and found someone had an ownership question, then I would have to immediately stop selling this product until the matter was resolved. This is what DBS and SimMarket should be doing, and anything short of that is a slap in the face to the flight sim community, and to slap MY face is asking for a boatload of problems.I would take that under advisement, both DBS and SimMarket, as you are about to make a ton of flight sim enemies unless you do the right thing on this one. To be involved in theft of files from a freeware developer is just not very cool.I do not personally know Rob, however I have this gut feeling he is correct, and the injured party in this issue, and since AVSIM is know for it's upfront journalism on piracy and other matters in our hobby, I feel it only natural that they now take up this banner and investigate the matter and then report back to the community. And, should DBS and SimMarket be at fault and not DO SOMETHING to remedy this situation, then they shoud be boycotted by our community until they DO THE RIGHT THING.Just one old pilots thoughts about right and wrong.Best to everyone and may the honest parties here be rewarded.Clay PS to TOM A. I'm sorry Tom, maybe it's just getting ready for this darned hurricane that's gonna hammer me and my horses, or perhaps I'm getting too old and need more medication, -- I know you have a full plate with all that you do, but you, sir, do carry a big stick in our hobby, and I for one respect your honesty and creditability, and with that respect and creditability goes a responsibility to this community -- Please enter into this and tell us what is really going on. My Best to you and yours, Clayhttp://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...ers/Dopke01.jpgClayton T. Dopke (Clay)Major, USAF (retired)"Drac"

"perhaps I'm getting too old and need more medication"....You do, and you knew I would say that. :-lol Seriously, we have contacted DSB about this and have asked for a response. Given it is a Sunday, I doubt we'll hear anything today, but I would hope we'll hear something tomorrow. As for SimMarket, well, money is king, so we'll see what they do in response. :)fEDIT: forgot to add... Clay, keep your head down. We are concerned about Ken and Marty as well as you and all others in the path of Dennis. Pull the plug, be safe and when you reach the flip side, let us know you are okay!!! God speed dude!

Rob I'm sorry that this has happend. Stealing other's freeware gauges for profit is truly the lowest of the low in our hobby. I will not purchase anything from DSB, and never have.

If they created their solution using ideas from yours there's no piracy involved at all.Unless you have a worldwide patent on your ideas anyone can do that.Given that both you and they likely used a piece of software to create the XML gauges and you may well have used the same software there's a very good chance that the files will indeed look the same and have the same data in them.Nothing there to shout about piracy per se, that's the problem with XML gauges rather than compiled binaries.

Rob, I don't own the DSB Harrier as I am satisfied with Adam Preece's after installing your gauges. With that said; Thank you. It has made a great model visually but an ungainly beast to fly a pleasure to fly now. I can't help you prove that they have been used by DSB but have no reason to doubt that they have since both the Alpha Sim Harrier and the DSB Harrier came out long after the Adam Preece model as far as I can tell. Good luck with your quest. Again...thanks for your contribution. C. Evans N1949E

Yes, usually you use a sofisticated piece of software to create XML gauges: It's called notepad.See again the post. It's a copy line by line. In my book that's called plagiarism.Jos

I hate to say this JR but if indeed all of the spacing is the same and the version number is the same then I would say that they just took his file and took out his comment lines which is piracy in my opinion. It really irks me when some one makes money off of anothers work without their permission or any type of compensation. Thank God I saw Rob's post because I was going to buy the Harrier today but now it looks like I will not be buying it, at least until something is worked out between the parties or if it is proven that it is not the same file but I doubt that is the case. Good luck to you Rob I really hate to see this kind of thing happen. As for DSB and SimMarket, please do the right thing. Philip Olsonhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/supporter.jpg

As a person who paid for the DSB Harrier and had also previously used the AP Designs Harrier in conjunction with Rob's VSTOL control gauges, I can confirm that they are direct copies. Not similar, exact copies. To verify the original author, just check the file library by searching for rcbhc-15.zip.Rob's gauges were uploaded in June 2004.This isn't the first time this kind of issue has come up. DSB did something similar to Eric Marciano with the original payware version of the Hawk. It contained entries in the panel.cfg so users who had Eric's F-16.gau would get a HUD. The website originally advertised it as including a HUD. Eric didn't get a penny, nor was he asked. Technically though, they didn't include the actual gauge so they got away with it. But this time its taking a freeware package and applying it to a payware release without any credit being given or even admitting its been taken. Eventually DSB made their own HUD to avoid future potential backlash (and because their forum had multiple threads asking why customers couldn't see the HUD and directing them to Eric's site) FTD1949, Alpha Sims Harrier is much older than Adam's. It was originally an FS2002 release when FSDS2 was still fairly new.

Give em ####, Rob & Tom!!!

Jeroen,1. I use Notepad to create all my .xml gauges.2. If you would have bothered to look inside my archive RCBHC-15.ZIP (from your statements I can only assume you didn't) and look at the .xml file in question: if you know of a program that would deliver exactly the same complex and tweaked .xml code, given the specification of what it should do, I'll be much obliged.It would have saved me about 200-300 hours of development.Rob

There are 2 or 3 addon companies that I will never buy from, and a few FS related websites that I will never support because of blatant piracy and other actions. I'm sure most of the people that visit this forum know exactly who those companies and websites are....and I buy many addons every year.So for the companies that don't take this type of thing very seriously (an you know who you are), you have for sure lost my business....FOREVER. Us flight simmers have very long memories.If true, this would not be the first time that a publisher has tried to say that they are not at fault because it was an independent developer that commited the piracy. That's no excuse.Matt Fox

"If true, this would not be the first time that a publisher has tried to say that they are not at fault because it was an independent developer that commited the piracy. That's no excuse."Indeed. One of the first piracy stories that AVSIM covered was in the late 90's and it involved a German company that refused to take responsibility for the actions of their "authors". They stood by the claim that they were "just publishers" and that their authors had nothing to do with them. That proved to be a loosing argument very quickly (like overnight!). Publishers are responsible for the content of their offerings, regardless of who worte the program, add on or whatever. Those that do not take the responsible position in response, are those that will not be in business too long.

I believe some old articles are actual again:http://www.avsim.com/pages/0901/carenado_s...ado_092701.htmlAnd those who believe the piracy can't be traced, better read this:http://www.avsim.com/pages/0901/carenado_s...llegations.html

DSB better get to the bottom of this allegation, rather than talking legalese!