Probably closer to the truth, assuming you are following a microsoft model and not something more like x-plane.

 

I was always under the impression (could be wrong) that Aerosoft was thinking about 5 years or maybe more, and in other forums when discussing the price of a sim, 20 million dollars was mentioned several times as a realistic start.

 

Throughout this entire discussion, I've been assuming that Stephen B's kickstarter was eventually going to have to find that sort of money. But I also don't think he has a prayer of getting it from just the known flight sim community alone; which Is why I have always said the tent needs to be as broad as possible.

 

A kickstarter for just a flightsim? :unsure:

 

I would guess if this ever got off the ground, a kickstarter would have to go in stages as well, with specific milestones, the first being to assemble at least a small team and show a proof of capability and concept.

if you want to build the NGFS, fork FlightGear and turn it in the direction you want. That might in the long run be the least amount of work.

 

Flightgear might be a good way to save time and money but I've never thought of it as a next-gen flightsim, more like FS-2000 or X-Plane -V6 with bells and whistles.   I even tried the latest version of FlightGear today and it still feels old-gen, especially when compared to some of the game/sim-engines such as Outerra, Unigine and GTA-5 etc. 

 

Next-Gen-Flightsim?

https://youtu.be/RtnCpuDJf1s?t=27

I was always under the impression (could be wrong) that Aerosoft was thinking about 5 years or maybe more, and in other forums when discussing the price of a sim, 20 million dollars was mentioned several times as a realistic start.

 

$20,000,000 is  £13,000,000. At £70,000 programmer that's equivalent to 185 programmer years, or 37 programmers full time over a 5 year period. That seems more realistic.

Again, I would hope that some folks who have already done it successfully, ie, Aerowinx( one individual, many years) would be asked to share his wisdom. Stephen, go to aerowinx and ask. The guy is always present and speaks with many years of experience in flight simming.

 

But we've already heard from many experienced and knowledgeable folks on this thread, including Nuitkati and Luke etc, who have outlined the hard reality of the situation faced in successfully developing a next-gen-flightsim.

 

...I suggest people read Nuitkati's post if they haven't already >>

-------------------------------------------------

 

Nuitkati wrote....

 

Hi Stephen,

 

"I commend your effort. But I couldn't resist throwing some "real world" in here. I have been in the enterprise software development business for 20 years now, first as a developer, then as a project manager.

 

True, a lot of projects start by brainstorming, but this is the smallest and least expensive part of it. Everyone has ideas about everything. I don't even think this is necessary at the current state,......"..

 

"The second thing I have my doubts about is the community itself. Yes it exists, but I don't think that is as large as everyone suspects. Much less that it is possible to 'flock' them together,.........."

 

-----

His full post is here, including costing estimates >>

 

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/469292-the-new-faster-leaner-next-generation-flight-simulator-sim-posium-is-now-available-for-your-input/page-13

Flightgear might be a good way to save time and money but I've never thought of it as a next-gen flightsim, more like FS-2000 or X-Plane -V6 with bells and whistles.   I even tried the latest version of FlightGear today and still feel its old-gen, especially when compared to some of the game/sim-engines we've seen lately .i.e. Outerra, Unigine, GTA-5 etc. 

 

FlightGear

https://youtu.be/RtnCpuDJf1s?t=27

 

I am in a LOT of forums, and have been looking at this a while. I don't think of flightgear as exactly next gen either, and I know there has been speculation from time to time on how to step things up a notch in the graphics department. Occasionally, you see suggestions on their forums of transferring FG to the Outerra engine, especially since they share JSBSIM.

 

Flightgear is however, its own proud community (very committed to remaining open source) and the talk never goes far. I do see the combo in my dreams sometimes, though.  :smile:

 

Bomber (Simon) an experienced Flighgear FDM designer has been very valuable in trying to help get Outerra up to speed in the opposite direction. Just yesterday he released a second test FDM for the Ask-13 glider and asked for opinions from any experienced pilot. Thats how I can see people from here, being very valuable over there.

 

Someday or another, somehow or the other, this community will eventually grope its way to a truly next gen sim.

 

By the way, I also fiddle with flightgear, just to keep up with where they are.

As one person stated earlier... "This is definitely not 2006". 

 

Although the information within this thread has actually moved to very constructive information, I believe for the most part that we're still looking at development and financing development from a "2006" perspective.

 

I agree that developers are not going to do the work for a cup of coffee, but one thing to keep in mind... a cup of coffee here in the US and in many part of Western Europe is $6.00 a cup. What I mean by that is this... if we stay inside the "2006" box we'll miss out on the tremendous amount of talent that comes from other countries such as India, Israel, Eastern Europe, South America, etc. 

 

I've come across entire teams of talented professional who are willing to work full time on a project for $30,000 per month a total of $360,000 per year USD. Would we need to scrutinize such resources... of course we would, but that resource is available through a "2015" concept called CrowdSourcing Software Development. Many of these folks have gone to all the right schools and have just as much talent and knowledge as those who demand salaries of over $100K per year or more and I would say that the majority of such talent outside the US and Western Europe would be thankful for the work.

 

Another "2015" tool available to us is CrowdFunding, but as it has been pointed out, time and time again, not to many people are going to put their hard earned money into a project built on fluff. That is where I was hoping the community would come in, that we as a community at least had the talent and the time to come together and discuss what we wanted in a next generation flight simulator.

 

Right now the discussion in this thread is extremely constructive and I'm enjoying the input as it lends itself to creativity.... looking at the hurdles and then figuring away around them. 

 

 "It might also give you a little bit more credibility as well that you can do more than come up with ideas and work for other people to do." 

 

I'll be frank about that statement... the NGFS SIM-Posium has nothing to do with my credibility... it has everything to do with the community working together to achieve what many will consider to be impossible. We've talked and talked for years about the things that we don't want and the things that we do want in a next generation flight simulator, we've griped and groaned about big producers not listening to us as a community and implementing the ideas, which equate to features, that we the community desire in our flight simulator. And we've applauded the efforts of others who have kept flight simulation alive. Now the question is, whether it be on this forum or on the NGFS SIM-Posium, can we as a community pull together to plan and create a means by which all the challenges of creating a next generation flight simulator be met. Are we all talk and little action or are we willing to work as a community to achieve the ultimate flight simulator that not only will serve our needs now but in the future as well?

 

Let's say out of all the members of the flight simulator community that 1,000 individuals said to themselves... "If not us... then who" and then they gathered themselves together and discussed the features of a next generation flight simulator and devised a preliminary outline of what that flight simulator will be. Let's say that's all we did, we organized and created a community driven next generation flight simulator on paper. In all honesty do you think that many others within the community wouldn't take notice of such a movement?

 

Now let's say that others did take notice and folks who actually had some genuine insight as to how a next generation flight simulator could be built start adding their opinions to the mix and the plan became more and more refined. And let's suppose for just a moment that the plan became so refined that all we needed was the finances to be able to recruit the talents of others (on a more reasonable basis than what the US or Western Europe would demand) and we created an entity that could govern itself. Do you not think that such activity would get the attention of thousands of more interested individuals. 

 

I think it's time to visualize the possibilities that such modern tools as CrowdSourcing and CrowdFunding can bring to the table. Perhaps the talent isn't readily available within the flight simulator community, but more so outside the community. That doesn't mean that we as a community can't create the entity to plan and manage such a project. 

 

Last but not least, we as a community can create the momentum necessary to pull off such a feat. We just have to stop thinking it can't be done and start looking at how it can be done and channel our efforts towards accomplishing the goals that we set.

 

Stephen B.

 

 

On average a programmer's salary in London  is about £35,000.

 

Good luck building this with average programmers. Consider what the average baseball player's salary is. It's somewhere around $40k a year. Would you try building a competitive baseball team with a payroll of $1m?

 

There's a power law at work here.

 

Cheers!

 

Luke

I've come across entire teams of talented professional who are willing to work full time on a project for $30,000 per month a total of $360,000 per year USD

 

Stephen, Please tell Microsoft where you found them, we really could use an FS11

 

 

I agree that developers are not going to do the work for a cup of coffee, but one thing to keep in mind... a cup of coffee here in the US and in many part of Western Europe is $6.00 a cup. What I mean by that is this... if we stay inside the "2006" box we'll miss out on the tremendous amount of talent that comes from other countries such as India, Israel, Eastern Europe, South America, etc. 
 
I've come across entire teams of talented professional who are willing to work full time on a project for $30,000 per month a total of $360,000 per year USD. Would we need to scrutinize such resources... of course we would, but that resource is available through a "2015" concept called CrowdSourcing Software Development. Many of these folks have gone to all the right schools and have just as much talent and knowledge as those who demand salaries of over $100K per year or more and I would say that the majority of such talent outside the US and Western Europe would be thankful for the work.

 

That's ironic. For someone who suggests we abandon our "2006" thinking you're encouraging us to think like it's 1999 all over again.

 

All those international folks you talk about? The good ones are already making US salaries, either because they moved here or because they are able to leverage their scarce skills into the same salary over there. There isn't some mythic pipeline of Indian PhDs from Berkeley who will work for $10/hour. If you want talent, you pay for it. End of story.

 

Have you actually worked with offshore teams?

 

Cheers!

 

Luke

It is a fact that some of the best sims in the last few years seem to come from Russia. Flightsims seem very very popular over there. Just for curiosities sake, I wonder what Russian salaries look like? How much did the development of rise of Flight cost in US dollars, for instance?

 

I remember back in the day, Aerosoft was very very gung-ho for the rise of flight engine as a candidate for their potential sim. (even as a beta tester) I always wondered why, as I don't think it had a round earth, and that was one of their main stated criteria.

 

 

Good luck building this with average programmers.

 

I'm not trying to build anything - i'm merely setting a scene.

That's ironic. For someone who suggests we abandon our "2006" thinking you're encouraging us to think like it's 1999 all over again.

 

All those international folks you talk about? The good ones are already making US salaries, either because they moved here or because they are able to leverage their scarce skills into the same salary over there. There isn't some mythic pipeline of Indian PhDs from Berkeley who will work for $10/hour. If you want talent, you pay for it. End of story.

 

Have you actually worked with offshore teams?

 

Cheers!

 

Luke

When I wrote my last post I realized at the time of writing it that there would be some prejudice... I realize that no one is knocking down talent or the individuals outside the US or Western Europe but that... recognition of such talent would be difficult.

 

I would ask... where are your statistics to back up your comments? Have you taken the time to research CrowdSourcing Software Development... or are you shooting from the hip?

 

There are numerous sources available that would debunk the stigma that individuals of talent are only available within the confines of multi-million dollar corporations or freelance work is inferior to the work performed by someone making $100k per month.

 

We've mentioned the talents of those within the community who have provided truly remarkable assets over the years... many of those are self taught!

 

As I stated we would have to scrutinize such resources, but that doesn't dismiss the fact that talent outside the US and Western Europe does indeed exist at a reasonable cost factor.

 

Stephen B.

. the NGFS SIM-Posium has nothing to do with my credibility... it has everything to do with the community working together to achieve what many will consider to be impossible

 

Thats your view Stephen but I see it the other way round.  I reckon the NGFS SIM-Posium has everything do with your credibility since you set it up to announce your next-gen-flightsim project, and you even outlined the pay structure for those who would be working on the project.  

 

You say that the NGFS SIM-Posium has everything do with the community working together to achieve what many will consider to be impossible. But that's just your theory, your pitch if you like.  In reality your site and its members are a small part of the worldwide flightsim community -including of course AVSIM -which has been putting forward ideas for a new flight-sim for years. 

 

Dont get me wrong, I admire your enthusiasm but feel you're trying to rally the troops to a battle that will never take place any time soon for various reasons already mentioned in the last few pages of this thread.. You could of course prove me wrong by coming back with something concrete, i.e. a few million in funding, plus that development team in India, for example.

 

 

You say that the NGFS SIM-Posium has everything do with the community working together to achieve what many will consider to be impossible. But that's just your theory, your pitch if you like.  In reality your site and its members are a small part of the worldwide flightsim community -including of course AVSIM -which has been putting forward ideas for a new flight-sim for years. 

 

And somebody stepped out finally and says he wants to try to bell the cat. Brave soul! 

Here's a Faster Leaner Nexgen Flightsim from a company with serious resources behind them

 

http://www.flightarcade.com/missions/tin