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jdennis

Differences of opinion on this forum

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From my point of view, there seems to be an issue on this forum in relation to people being able to have reasonable, civilised debates; or indeed being able to share their opinions at all.

 

I have noticed the same thing on the PMDG Facebook page.

 

Some posts apparently strike a nerve and are deleted. They are not replied to with an alternate view, not simply ignored, but they are actively and very quickly removed.

 

I have one simple question. Why?

 

What is it that makes PMDG so worried that they expend their resources on moderating almost every comment on every thread in this forum? For example, the thread about pricing policy in which debate about pricing policy was not allowed frankly became a farce.

 

Ok, I agree that we should not tolerate personal attacks, vile comments and flame wars. But if there is a legitimate discussion going on, why is the first reaction always to shut it down rather than participate in it?

 

Let's see what happens to this thread. PMDG, you have a chance to pretty much refute my entire post if you reply and answer my simple questions. If it is deleted, then I suppose those who notice can come to their own conclusions as to why.

 

One final note - I am not trying to be hostile towards anyone. I just would like it explained why this is going on.

 

 

John Dennis

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They lock those topics because their pricing policies are not up for debate, nor are their other polices.

 

Having said that, there is no point in discussing them. If your not satisfied with their policies then your not obligated to purchase their products or participate in their forum.

 

Simple as that.

 

 

Jim Burke

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Pricing has been discussed to great lengths.

Kyle has done a great job with saying the reason why but it always ends up the same way

As in I want my 737 for a discount because I have it in fsx. Pmdg has said from the beginning they were not going to do that. That is why post get locked.

Regards ted kiser

P.s Kyle you do a good job thanks

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I don't notice any significant posts being deleted. the only ones I have noticed are those which over-the-top on PMDG's pricing and polices. There is  no point debating them because they're not open to discussion.

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For example, the thread about pricing policy in which debate about pricing policy was not allowed frankly became a farce.

Discussing pricing is explicitly against the rules in the forum Ts and Cs. It's PMDG's business and not open for discussion. Also it always leads to division and argument so another reason not to alllow the topic.

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Also, it's their FB page, which is kind of like a shop or marketing tool. If you have an issue, log a support ticket. However, the FB pages is theirs, so they can delete if they feel appropriate. To some that may seam harsh or even Orwellian, however, it is their page. Like someone's physical shop is theirs, too

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I have one simple question. Why?

 

This is because they usually spark some pretty vitriolic debates about a topic we're not going to change simply because someone doesn't like it. There are many other factors in this discussion that many people often overlook out of convenience.

 

While this thread is somewhat outdated, I think it very clearly shows how complex the issue truly is - it's not as simple as one would imagine:

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/426627-a-few-notes-regarding-pmdgs-position-on-p3d-development/

 

 

 


What is it that makes PMDG so worried that they expend their resources on moderating almost every comment on every thread in this forum?

 

If the forum (or Facebook page) is uncivil, people will not participate. So, resources are expended in ensuring that unproductive arguments either do not start, or are removed. We want people to participate, but we also want a civil, factual, environment in which people can do that.

 

 

 


Ok, I agree that we should not tolerate personal attacks, vile comments and flame wars. But if there is a legitimate discussion going on, why is the first reaction always to shut it down rather than participate in it?

 

This usually only happens with the pricing discussion, or topics that get out of hand. For the former, see above.

 

"Anyone who comes to the forum or our facebook page who wants to engage other simmers and/or us in factual, calm, respectful conversation is always welcome- even if we don't agree with you and even if your opinion is different than ours.  We cannot allow folks who simply wish to vent anger or troll/incite arguments to participate freely however as this diminishes the value of the forum for all others."

http://forum.avsim.net/topic/461729-08feb15-p3d-pricing-policy-some-facts-on-this-issue/

 

Where people often fall short in holding to this in their posts about pricing is that they go beyond "I don't like this" and begin to make assumptions about what should or should not be done without knowing the facts (the intricacies of which are alluded to in the first link, above).

 

P.s Kyle you do a good job thanks

 

Thanks Ted!


 

 


To some that may seam harsh or even Orwellian, however, it is their page.

 

Honestly, to me, it's also somewhat of a result of not having the option to lock a thread as it stands if it's getting out of control. It's either "allow comments" or "allow none." Alternatively, you can just nix the comments that are out of hand as you come across them. Since it's not set up to be a robust forum-like environment, it makes it pretty tough to treat it like one. Additionally, people also usually tend to act out a little more aggressively there, since Facebook itself is more about the "me" and less about the community, and rightly so - it's your digital persona, in a way - but that doesn't mean that should fly on our page. Har har...punny punny...

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Well said Kyle, I think most of us, even myself, can sometimes come across badly, in this world of text only. Get us all in a pub with a pint and I think we'd never have some of the sniping that goes on. It's just the world of text only. Especially mixed with cultural and language differences

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I think a lot of people forget that neither this forum nor the Facebook page are not neutral ground, they are for the most part store fronts and support desks.  The fact that people can hang around and talk amongst themselves about the product is merely incidental.

 

Whilst as others point out that you should vote with your wallet (and you should), I'm not a great believer in "put up or shut up", feedback needs to be in a neutral place for people to see (Trip Advisor being a great example of how this can work well). But.... You can wander into a fireplace showroom and start asking about the products, you can talk to other customers about the products, but (and it's a big but) if you start loudly asking customers how they put up with the imitation marble and how everyone else uses real marble, you are going to be shown the door politely but firmly, and if you refuse to leave, the cops are going to arrive and you risk spending the night somewhere other than your own bed.  This is the fireplace showroom and Kyle is the shop floor assistant charged with keeping the crazies out.

 

If you still want to make your views known, find neutral ground.  There's plenty of it around, just this doesn't fit the description.

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Thank you everyone for the replies, and once again I hope I did not come across as confrontational.

 

Kyle, you did pretty much answer my question perfectly - I think it is a shame that people are often unable to have a civil discussion about things like pricing.

 

But I do also think that PMDG should welcome feedback and discussion about their policies and decisions. After all, happy customers that feel like their opinions are respected and listened to are more likely to support a company.

 

I understand that you can't always meet peoples' wishes - especially with your obligations to Boeing and other real-world parties - but PMDG saying "yes, that is a good point and thank you for making it, but here's why we can't do that..." is much nicer to read than "we don't allow discussion of this policy".

 

John Dennis

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I'm impressed you used the word "vitriolic" Kyle.  That one sent me to Dictionary.com, but I do speak a little like Rocky Balboa at times.  Now I have to wait for a chance to use it at work.

 

TD

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I'm impressed you used the word "vitriolic" Kyle.  That one sent me to Dictionary.com, but I do speak a little like Rocky Balboa at times.  Now I have to wait for a chance to use it at work.

 

TD

Here you go:

 

Scene: water cooler

You: hey guys, get a load of this... Yesterday, in a forum I participate in, someone three the word "vitriolic" out there... Can you believe that? :P

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After all, happy customers that feel like their opinions are respected and listened to are more likely to support a company.

 

Depends on the way the opinion is expressed and this is what the others are saying.   I may say look, I don't necessarily agree with it and I respectfully raise this issue.   They will say okay so we disagree, not the first time and it probably won't be the last.   As long as it is done in a respectful way.   I have seen too many of these threads where people don't just ask a question - they openly attack the developer, basically telling them that they are being silly and that they have a much better of way doing things and that the developer should follow their business/legal model.   Now, if someone asks me a question or disagrees with me, that is fine.   We are all different and we have different opinions, but when someone openly attacks me I become defensive and ends the conversation there and then, firmly and as politely as the situation allows.

 

I once participated in a forum discussion where someone asked the question as to why support staff are being so rude with other developers, not going mention names.   My opinion, based on what I have seen and how customers address the support desk, was that customers are being downright rude and abusive towards the developers and then they expect a civilised answer after basically being judge, jury and executioner, gunning the developer down in cold blood in a classic "shoot first and ask questions later" approach.   Sound brutal?   That is just the point!   People simply don't address topics in a civilised and decent manner anymore.   When one looks at what you see here and in other threads from time to time, you almost come to the conclusion that people are losing the sense to communicate properly, they just hurl insults everywhere and when there is swift administrative action, they cry about the fact that the posts are deleted.

 

Like Kyle said - civil discourse is good, but it hardly ever remains there.

 

Kind regards

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(...)

 

Like Kyle said - civil discourse is good, but it hardly ever remains there.

 

(...)

 

And that's why this kind of threads requires a lot of 'babysitting' by the 'deputies' also.

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From my point of view, there seems to be an issue on this forum in relation to people being able to have reasonable, civilised debates; or indeed being able to share their opinions at all.

 

I have noticed the same thing on the PMDG Facebook page.

 

Some posts apparently strike a nerve and are deleted. They are not replied to with an alternate view, not simply ignored, but they are actively and very quickly removed.

 

I have one simple question. Why?

 

What is it that makes PMDG so worried that they expend their resources on moderating almost every comment on every thread in this forum? For example, the thread about pricing policy in which debate about pricing policy was not allowed frankly became a farce.

 

Ok, I agree that we should not tolerate personal attacks, vile comments and flame wars. But if there is a legitimate discussion going on, why is the first reaction always to shut it down rather than participate in it?

 

Let's see what happens to this thread. PMDG, you have a chance to pretty much refute my entire post if you reply and answer my simple questions. If it is deleted, then I suppose those who notice can come to their own conclusions as to why.

 

One final note - I am not trying to be hostile towards anyone. I just would like it explained why this is going on.

 

 

John Dennis

 

I've made similar observations, and to be honest, althought I love PMDG products, I've made a conscious decision not to visit the PMDG forums here any more.     I see defensiveness, people belittled and condescended, a gung ho attitude to responding the paying customers, and well.... I just don't like it, so I've voted with my eyes as it were. :smile:

  • Upvote 1

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"I have come to inform you that I am no longer talking to you."

 

*scratches head*

 

Does anyone else see the...?

 

Nope. Nevermind. I'm just gonna leave that one alone.

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I caught it... reminds me of a piece of dialog from The Big Bang Theory:

Penny to Amy, "You could try giving Sheldon the silent treatment."

Amy, "No, he loves that."

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I caught it... reminds me of a piece of dialog from The Big Bang Theory:

 

One of my favorites:

 

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I see defensiveness, people belittled and condescended, a gung ho attitude to responding the paying customers...

 

 

"I have come to inform you that I am no longer talking to you."

 

*scratches head*

 

Does anyone else see the...?

 

Nope. Nevermind. I'm just gonna leave that one alone.

 

There is far too much irony in this thread.

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those days are gone where i can send a pm to Rob and report to him what was wrong with his air files or the manual for the 744 ps1 had a page missing.

 

those days are gone when you can drop to Jason an email about his 747sp between his studies and work at cvr.

 

now they re busy and i do not think that forum is for that kind of discussion anymore the interweb went that far because of being anonymous that unless you met someone or chat over the phone there is no control.

 

i do not participate that much anymore because i do not know who im talking with, plus i still didnt install fsx on a computer and fs9 still work enough for what im doing ...

 

and 9/11 impacted too our real industry and of course simulation.

 

enjoy all your day.

 

Phil

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