Training is not permitted at either Heathrow and Gatwick airports. It is permiteed at Luton under conditions
 

(a) All flying training is subject to prior permission from London Luton Airport Operations Ltd. All visiting and Luton based operators and aircrew requesting to undertake instrument training flights at Luton whether landing or not, must contact Airport Operations by telephone: 01582-395525.

 (b ) All training will be subject to acceptance by Air Traffic Control having regard to the tactical traffic situation. The filing of a flight plan for a training flight does not in itself imply permission or ATC acceptance

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-6819C41EA6FD696307AAB6A248D7394D/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/AIP/AD/EG_AD_2_EGGW_en_2015-08-20.pdf

Correct, Gerry, but I'm not sure this is relevant to this discussion.

 

I stand to be corrected, but I think what is meant by "training flights" in this context is, for example, initial flying/instrument training or base training circuits etc, rather than training carried out as part of regular operations. Otherwise BA would have a bit of bother line-training their new pilots!

 

Besides, an autoland in CATI conditions may be required to maintain the aircraft's certification as much as the crew. I don't think performing a practice autoland would be considered a "training flight" -- and they most certainly do occur at LHR.

 

Ultimately, if you perform an autoland in CATI conditions pretty much anywhere with any traffic ATC are unlikely to go out of their way to protect the ILS for you. Therefore, as Dave says, as a crew you must be alert to the possibility that the system may not perform as expected and be prepared to take over manually or initiate a go around at any stage.

 

 

Otherwise BA would have a bit of bother line-training their new pilots!

 

Simulators?

Yes -- for the type rating issue of course -- but before being fully released to the line, a good 30-40 sectors (at least) of line training on revenue flights with a training captain (and, for the first few sectors, an extra 'safety pilot') are required for a new pilot on type, culminating in a route check. These are, arguably, "training flights" -- but they are also revenue flights, which I imagine is the significant factor.

 

Of course, the circuit (base) training that is required for first type rating issues is conducted elsewhere (often down at Chateauroux in France), but the subsequent line training is very much on flights in and our of LHR/LGW -- same for all type & command conversions as well.

We are talking about CAT II/III training - not other training. The Airbus document Getting to grips with CAT II / CAT III operations states:

 

Crew training for CAT II / CAT III is divided into two parts. Firstly ground instruction
and the philosophy of All Weather Operations, and secondly flight training carried
out in either a simulator or during airborne training.

 

http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/1480.pdf

 

Think about it. Setting up a CAT II/III approach is purely a procedural activity. The real pilot skill is in determining visual reference at DecIsion Height. What's the point in training to reference the Decision Height in clear weather?

 

 

Think about it. Setting up a CAT II/III approach is purely a procedural activity. The real pilot skill is in determining visual reference at DecIsion Height. What's the point in training to reference the Decision Height in clear weather?

 

Because to maintain CATII/III currency, each crewmember needs to have completed a certain number of autolands, either in the sim or in the real aircraft, within a certain period (3 in 90 days I think). As sim details will be more than 90 days apart, it's occasionally necessary to complete some autolands in the real thing to retain currency.

 

Independent of that, each individual aircraft in the fleet also needs to demonstrate an autoland at least once every 30 days (I think -- may be 90) in order to retain its CATII/III status, otherwise that particular airframe will be downgraded to CATI only until an autoland can be demonstrated (in CATI conditions, obviously).

14 CFR 61.67 - Category II pilot authorization requirements states:
 

© Practical test requirements.

(ii) If the applicant has not passed a practical test for this authorization during the 12 calendar months preceding the month of the test, then that person must—

(A) Meet the requirements of§ 61.57©*; and

( B) Have performed at least six ILS approaches during the 6 calendar months preceding the month of the test, of which at least three of the approaches must have been conducted without the use of an approach coupler.

(3) The approaches specified in paragraph ©(2)(ii)( B) of this section—
(i) Must be conducted under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions;

* holds an IFR

And the thread is off the tracks.. Training hadn't even been mentioned until post 46.

Yeah. Not only is it off track, there is a bunch of confusion about training versus currency. As I mentioned earlier, if you aren't sure of what you're getting into, it may be worth not getting into it.

 

Running through various procedures for the sake of currency is not considered training. If it were, every landing would be considered training, as pilots need to have 3 landings within the preceding 90 days to maintain passenger carrying currency.

 

Now...back on topic...

Point being that an inbound flight mentions that they are going to a practice autoland, it's the aircrew that needs to be wary that the ILS signal will not be protected like it would be if they were conducting Cat II operations. The tower may still taxi aircraft past the Cat II hold line, taxi aircraft across the runway, or continue departing well inside the point where they would have had to stop if Cat II or III were actually in place.

 

I could see it very easily varying slightly from Country to Country.

It certainly does vary and it can't simply be stated that no protection will be provided. Some places publish times of day when the ILS at an airport will be protected for practice autolands. Some airports will at least try and maintain Cat II/III holds. Some airports may switch off a close parallel ILS. Other airports will simply reply that the ILS is not protected.

From the passengers' perspective, every landing is an autoland.

Unless you're on a Ryanair flight

Yeah. Not only is it off track, there is a bunch of confusion about training versus currency. As I mentioned earlier, if you aren't sure of what you're getting into, it may be worth not getting into it.

 

Running through various procedures for the sake of currency is not considered training. If it were, every landing would be considered training, as pilots need to have 3 landings within the preceding 90 days to maintain passenger carrying currency.

 

Now...back on topic...

Agreed...does anyone remember who started the topic in the first place? 

 

-Jim

UK CAP Flight Crew Licensing:Mandatory Requirements, Policy and Guidance, which also includes the rules set out in the European Aircrew Regulation.  This states CAT II or CAT III  type rating can't be  issued   unless the  pilot passes the training requirements in section 6. These can be completed in a Full Flight Simulator or in an aircraft. The only exception is Rejected take-off at minimum authorised RVR for which aircraft may not be used.

A pilot can be  granted CAT II or CAT III type rating in a FFS without flying an aircraft.

Oh my...  Serenity now.