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Try 30Hz he said.....it'll be smooth he said..

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So I decided to change HDMI cables for my 4k monitor, just to see if slowing the refresh rate down to 30hz would be worth it. After watching Rob's videos, I couldn't believe how smooth everything looked. On my system, however, the experience was not smooth. There was huge input lag, especially using trackIR. Micro stutters as well. Granted, my monitor's native refresh rate with the heavy duty HDMI cable is 60hz, but I don't think that should matter (?). My Frame rate was 30 exactly and consistently throughout the whole flight. I had frames in sim to unlimited, Vertical sync, and tripple buffering all activated. I'll try to test again, but the lag with 30hz just seems too obvious, even with mouse movements.

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Youtube tends to smooth out the videos if you let it.

 

Try turning off vsync and set your frames to limited  30 or 31. I say 31 because the limiter always seems to run it at 29.2 if I put 30. If I set 31 it will go something in the range of 30.8 Dropping below 30 with vsync on will cause a stutter.  Also tripple buffering is known to cause input lag, it says as much if you mouse over the checkbox.

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Youtube tends to smooth out the videos if you let it.

 

My experience is just the opposite, YouTube tend to induce stutters as their server loads up and can't feed the data fast enough (especially at 4K).

 

 

 

So I decided to change HDMI cables for my 4k monitor, just to see if slowing the refresh rate down to 30hz would be worth it.

 

Don't understand what this means?  HDMI cables don't set monitor refresh rates?  4K 60Hz requires HDMI 2.0 cable, HDMI 2.0 port on the monitor, a monitor that can operate at 60Hz 4K, and a GPU with a HDMI 2.0 port (all 4 required).

 

To operate 4K 30Hz, you need minimum HDMI 1.4 cable, HDMI 1.4 or better port on monitor, a monitor that can operate at 30Hz 4K, and a GPU with a HDMI 1.4 port.

 

If you are running nVidia GPUs, I've found that in order to get the 60Hz option in the NCP I had to install the 3D vision aspect of the drivers.  NCP is where you can set your refresh rate ... but be aware there are many factors -- here is a quick video on changing your NCP settings (in 4K of course, surprised shadowPlay recording was ok with my change refresh on the fly):

 

Changing from 30Hz to 60Hz 4K

 

Launching P3D at 30 Hz 4K (raw unedited):

 

Launching P3D at 60Hz 4K (raw unedited):

 

I used mouse look to emulate how TrackIR would work.  Graphics settings are the same, Unlimited with Vsynch ON and triple buffer checked.  As you can see 30Hz is very smooth because I can in most cases stay above  30 FPS.  Now the 60Hz is not as smooth because I'm only able to hit around 40 FPS which is below 60Hz so Vsynch is doing nothing at all (it would only come into play when I'm above 60 FPS, which never happens).

 

If you can share more details, I can perhaps guide you in a direction, but the HDMI cable is only one small factor in the refresh equation.

 

Cheers, Rob.

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Hi Rob,

 

I tried your 30hz refresh rates and also got horrible stutters so a quick guide would help.

 

I am currently running at 60hz as I can meet all the variables you mention.

 

If at 60hz refresh rate should I turn of Vsync as you mention it doesn't kick in until it meets the 60hz target and I only get up in the forties and fifties.

 

Dave

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I would recommend you freesync by AMD. using DP cable and Freesync capable monitor, once you get more than 30fps, you wouldn't feel any stutters. Only your refresh rate= your fps, stutters are gone.

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Hi Dave,

 

I aim a 30 fps because it's hard to get 60 fps in all conditions without turning down graphics settings and I like to keep my graphics reasonably high (not extreme).  That's why I set my monitor to 30 Hz and as you can see from my video no stutters at 30Hz but stutters at 60Hz.

 

If you are operating your monitor at 60Hz and you are not able to sustain 60 FPS then turn Vsync OFF and set frame limiter to 2 FPS below your minimum FPS (i.e. if 40 FPS is your lowest then set frame limiter to 38).

 

But you really don't need 60Hz/60 FPS for TrackIR ... I use TrackIR frequently and it's stutter free at 30Hz.  I must admit, I've very puzzled at why you folks would see stutters at 30hz with Vsync and triple buffer if your able to sustain more than 30 fps?  It's sounds almost as if your refresh is 30Hz but your monitor is still operating at 60Hz regardless?

 

What 4K monitors are you folks using and what connection type - HDMI 1.4, 2.0, DisplayPort 1.2, 1.3 and of course which GPU(s)?

 

EDIT: and are you using NI for different AA options?  SGSS AA at 4K res can induce stutters unless you run high end GPUs (like 980Ti's or Titan X) in SLI performance mode.

 

Cheers, Rob.

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Hi Rob, 

 

Thanks for the videos. 

 

I'm running HDMI 2.0 and just created a custom profile in Nvidia to get 30Hz at this resolution while using HDMI 2.0. It's interesting because I can see how everything is on the verge of being smooth. I'm currently running a GTX 980Ti SC from EVGA. Only one card at the moment. I can run similar settings, just turning off Volumetric fog and shadows to Medium. If I run 60hz, I can usually maintain *at least* 40, unless I'm in a demanding area in a demanding airplane. (PMDG at KSFO HD). I just did a total and clean reinstall of P3D to see if it would help any. 

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Hi Dave,

 

I aim a 30 fps because it's hard to get 60 fps in all conditions without turning down graphics settings and I like to keep my graphics reasonably high (not extreme). That's why I set my monitor to 30 Hz and as you can see from my video no stutters at 30Hz but stutters at 60Hz.

 

If you are operating your monitor at 60Hz and you are not able to sustain 60 FPS then turn Vsync OFF and set frame limiter to 2 FPS below your minimum FPS (i.e. if 40 FPS is your lowest then set frame limiter to 38).

 

But you really don't need 60Hz/60 FPS for TrackIR ... I use TrackIR frequently and it's stutter free at 30Hz. I must admit, I've very puzzled at why you folks would see stutters at 30hz with Vsync and triple buffer if your able to sustain more than 30 fps? It's sounds almost as if your refresh is 30Hz but your monitor is still operating at 60Hz regardless?

 

What 4K monitors are you folks using and what connection type - HDMI 1.4, 2.0, DisplayPort 1.2, 1.3 and of course which GPU(s)?

 

EDIT: and are you using NI for different AA options? SGSS AA at 4K res can induce stutters unless you run high end GPUs (like 980Ti's or Titan X) in SLI performance mode.

 

Cheers, Rob.

@Rob,

 

Here I have set my fps to 31 and my NVSurround 3 monitor setup to 30 hz.

At very detailed airport with many clouds I usually have 16-30 fps.

With 3+ cloudlayers 20-30 fps.

Above the clouds always 30.

 

Do I need to turn on VSync or better not ? Triple buffer ?

It all looks very smooth now, but I am always willing to try other things for improvements.

 

Regards,

Gerard

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I aim a 30 fps because it's hard to get 60 fps in all conditions without turning down graphics settings and I like to keep my graphics reasonably high (not extreme).

 That was my point exactly in that other thread about smoothness :wink:

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Interesting topic!

 

I´ve bought a Phillips 40" 4K display a few weeks ago. It supports DisplayPort 1.2 - in other words - 60Hz. In 60Hz-mode, it´s smooth - in all aspects, except P3D.

 

I did some 30Hz testing last week, as described in Robs video. P3D is much more smooth @30Hz, although a bit more "laggy" - it seems slower to respond somehow. The mouse is sluggish, and the entire UI experience feels a bit like walking under water;) That said - there are no more microstutters, and with frames locked @ 30 and VSYNC on (in P3D), it´s very smooth! Although not sure I´m willing to trade no microstutters for a laggy UI..

 

Windows 7 is clearly not designed for lower refresh rates - it´s very sluggish @30hz! In a nutshell: I´ve never had so many misplaced mouse clicks in my life..;) Don´t know if it´s any way around this?

 

Anyway - 4K and heavy clouds kills my GTX 980 @1510mhz, so I just bought another one. Just have to do some clock testing and waterblock-fitting before matching it up with my GTX Classified in SLI :wub:

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Input lag increases as vsync target decreases. You measure input lag in milliseconds, so for a display set at 60hz the input lag is 1000/60=16.6ms

Going down to 30hz vsync gives you 1000/30=33.3ms and that is why all your inputs (mouse, joystick, trackIR) feel more sluggish.

I guess gsync/freesync is the only solution to get the best of both smoothness and low input lag, but I still don't know if it works at all with P3D/FSX.

User reports needed!

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I'm running HDMI 2.0 and just created a custom profile in Nvidia to get 30Hz at this resolution while using HDMI 2.0.

 

Not sure what you mean by "Custom Profile" ... there is no place in NCP that you can define a custom profile that includes refresh rate and output color format?  You can "Create a customer resolution" but you really shouldn't need to do that unless you don't see 30Hz as a refresh option in NCP?

 

 

 


he mouse is sluggish, and the entire UI experience feels a bit like walking under water;) That said - there are no more microstutters, and with frames locked @ 30 and VSYNC on (in P3D), it´s very smooth! Although not sure I´m willing to trade no microstutters for a laggy UI..

 

I have none of those issues with my setup per my video earlier in this thread, you can see I'm switching from 30 hz to 60 hz to 30 hz has no impact of UI performance (either desktop or in-game).  My hunch is there is something else at play here ... but I can assure you 30Hz can be a VERY smooth experience even with TrackIR.

 

Maybe if you folks posted videos of your desktop NCP settings, NI if you're using NI, and what you do to set refresh HZ and your graphics setting P3D ... my assumption is no one is using reshader or sweetfx or other tools that replace DXGI which could definitely skew the issue?

 

Cheers, Rob.


 

 


That was my point exactly in that other thread about smoothness

 

?? 30Hz is smooth if you maintain >30 FPS ... 60Hz is smooth if you can maintain >60 FPS, to do that you'll need to adjust graphics settings or toss better hardware at it.

 

I think I need to open a shop, "How to get your flight sim experience smooth" :)

 

Invite stands for anyone that wants to come and see first hand experience that 30Hz can indeed be very smooth ... call it an open house invite.

 

Cheers, Rob.


 

 


Do I need to turn on VSync or better not ? Triple buffer ?

 

1.  If you can sustain > 30 FPS in all cases, and your monitor is operating at 30Hz, then enable  Vsynch and triple buffer, unlimited

2.  If you can sustain > 60 FPS in all cases, and your monitor can operate at 60Hz, then enable Vsynch and triple buffer, unlimited

3.  If can't sustain >30 FPS in all cases, and your monitor is operating at 30Hz, then disable Vsynch and triple buffer, lock to 2 FPS below your minimum (i.e. 20 fps, the set to 18 fps)

4.  If you can't sustain >60 FPS in all cases, and your monitor can only operate at 60Hz correctly, then disable Vsynch and triple buffer, lock to 2 FPS below your minimum (i.e. 40 FPS then lock to 38)

 

Optimal is #2, then #1

 

If you're dropping to 16 FPS then you might want to consider adjusting graphics settings, I start to get input lag around 15 FPS.  It's NOT really "lag" as the input devices data stream operates at a constant sample cycle, it's the Flight sim that only get the data less frequently so your actual input data may not be at the position you think because you over compensate due to lower frame rates which makes the issue worse.

 

Cheers, Rob.

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but you really shouldn't need to do that unless you don't see 30Hz as a refresh option in NCP?

 

 

 

I created a custom desktop profile under "customize" "create custom resolution". I manually changed the refresh rate to 30 as it was not previously an option. After playing around, the sim does appear to be much smoother, with fewer micro stutters, but more 'large' stutters. In most cases, I am able to maintain 30FPS no problem. I'm just not a huge fan of the lag, and the slight "ghosting" that comes along with this 30hz thing. 

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I manually changed the refresh rate to 30 as it was not previously an option.

 

Details emerge, it you don't see 30Hz as an option in the Refresh Rate dropdown, then your monitor either does not work at 30Hz or something along the GPU to monitor connection isn't allowing a choice of 30Hz ... this is unfortunately not good news for you, either nVidia isn't recognizing your monitor correctly or your monitor has no native 30Hz support.

 

If you see ghosting then that is another sign your monitor does NOT want to operate at 30Hz.

 

Cheers, Rob.

 

 

Nevermind.

 

Too late, I read it ... to clarify I don't target 60 FPS, I have no need to (as I've consistently mentioned I target 30 fps and 30Hz) ... the video I showed you of PMDG at FT Copenhagen with ASN was to demonstrate 60 FPS is possible IF you are willing to adjust your graphics settings (in that case still pretty good graphics settings considering the add-ons used).

 

I keep 4 saved P3D graphics profiles pending on what I'm flying and where I'm flying and they all target 30 FPS (my web site lists many options) ... I have a LightWeightAircraftScenery, MediumWeightAircraftScenery, HeaveWeightAircraftScenery, and a PMDG profile.  I don't have a one profile fits all situations, there is no such thing IMHO given the vast performance and VAS difference in add-on aircraft, airports, regions, scenery, etc. etc.

 

I would imagine most have several saved graphics profiles pending their planned type of flight ... I also can't imagine someone would always run a PMDG graphics profile (LCD - lowest common denominator) that has reduced graphics settings when flying a different more simple aircraft (C-172) into less complex airports, that would be missing improved visual quality for no real reason?

 

Cheers, Rob.

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I was wondering what everyone's opinion is on preferences between a 40+ inch Samsung 4k tv (curved or not curved) vs the newer 31" curved monitors from Dell/Samsung.  They are both around $900.  Also interested in everyone's opinion on the format, i.e. the 21:9 vs 16:9.  Do these monitors support 30hz?

 

 

Thanks.

 

Jim

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What's coming out of this for me is that a monitor or TV that is 30hz capable is a must. We should build and keep a list of such devices and model numbers etc that people are successfully using so that anyone in the market for a display upgrade can ensure they don't spend cash on something that doesn't do the business for them?

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If I decided to run my screen at a lower resolution, I would see 30hz as an option.

 

Possibly.

Try it and see.

I'm running my Samsung 4K at 30Hz.

The option is available in NVCP.

What model Samsung do you have?

 

gb.

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What's coming out of this for me is that a monitor or TV that is 30hz capable is a must.

 

I'd expand that to a monitor that can do both 30Hz and 60Hz at 4K and still look as good at both refresh rates.  My Monitor has actually been discontinued by Sony but you can still find them.  When I purchased it, how well it looked at 30Hz and 60Hz was a big selling point for me (keep your receipt) ... and I'll admit, didn't really know how it would work until I got it home and figured out what it could and couldn't do and how it worked with my GPUs.

 

I've posted my Sony model many times but here it is again: Sony XBR49X850B.  

 

 

 


If I decided to run my screen at a lower resolution, I would see 30hz as an option.

 

Running a monitor at it's non-native resolution isn't desirable as it interpolates the image ... for best image quality you will always want to operate the monitor at it's native resolution.

 

Cheers, Rob.

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Hi,

 

A G-Sync monitor is a valuable option if you own an nVidia Card. Since some drivers versions, you can enable G-Sync in windowed mode. It helps a lot.

 

Kind Regards

 

Gerard

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Hello Rob,

 

first of all thanks for your infos and helps over the internet, i found your guides / videos for P3d so useful in last few months!

 

I am new in this world, i am running P3D 2.5 on a 4.8Ghz 4790k - 8Gb DDR2133MHz 8-10-10-27 at 1T - 980GTX Classified. I own an ASUS PG278Q Rog Swift and running it with P3D at 2560x1440 in 144Hz on Windows 7 x64. 

 

At the moment i am running no NI profile, only the power management to max performance in Nvidia control panel. In P3D 60fps locked vsync off. I use ga aircraft and i got about 40-50fps. it seems smooth, i also use trackir, but i can see some small screen tearing (not so bad but..) 

 

I also have G-SYNC on in my Nvidia control panel for both full screen and windowed mode, but i really don't know if it's working with p3d..

 

What do you think is the best config of Refresh rate, Vsync, fps limiting for my setup ??

 

Thanks a lot for your help

Gianluca

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Hi,

 

G-Sync is active in your Nvidia Control Panel ?

 

If it is, you can choose "In Full screen Mode" or in "Full Screen and Windowed"

 

To make it works with P3D you have to choose "Full Screen & Windowed".

 

When done, in P3D, you must desactivate VSync.

 

Gérard

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Hi Rob!

 

I did some more testing today.  In the Phillips BDM4065UC built in firmware menu, it's possible to select DisplayPort version 1.1 and 1.2. By default, the monitor runs in 1.1 mode, but I changed it to 1.2 to run at 60hz. What I did today, was to revert it back to 1.1, which made 4K @ 30Hz the maximum in NCP. (Possible selectable values are 30 and 29).

 

P3D is very smooth, alhough the input lag on the mouse and keyboard are in the 500ms region, and really anoying:/

 

One interesting difference in your MCP and mine, is that in DP 1.2 mode, the 4K resolution (listed as 4K) only gives 29hz, but if the same resolution is selected under "PC", NCP lets me select 3840x2160 (native) at 60hz (also the NCP default). All color and dynamic range formats are selectable, regardless of Hz on this monitor.

 

For the record - no SweetFX or reshade is in use in my configuration. Will try a fresh install of Windows next.

 

 

 


I have none of those issues with my setup per my video earlier in this thread, you can see I'm switching from 30 hz to 60 hz to 30 hz has no impact of UI performance (either desktop or in-game). My hunch is there is something else at play here ... but I can assure you 30Hz can be a VERY smooth experience even with TrackIR.



Maybe if you folks posted videos of your desktop NCP settings, NI if you're using NI, and what you do to set refresh HZ and your graphics setting P3D ... my assumption is no one is using reshader or sweetfx or other tools that replace DXGI which could definitely skew the issue?



Cheers, Rob.

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Tried again running mine at 30mhz...

 

Bingo....sweet,fluid,no stutters and no input lag..and looks amazing..

 

LG 49" 4K TV..HDMI 2.0 INPUT

 

Dave

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