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Chatster007

737 NGX VOR LOC not arming

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Hi,

 

I was flying a Ryanair route (RYR0118) from Dublin (EIDW) to Gatwick (EGKK). I did the flight in the Ryanair configuration that comes with the Ryanair skin I downloaded from PMDG.

 

I was on approach to EGKK runway 26L flying on A/P with VNAV and LNAV on. I tuned to the localiser and set the course (using the FSX info from the map page-the course on FMC approach page was different to FSX, which one should I use?). I like to arm the localiser, whilst on approach so it kicks in. I clicked VOR LOC, and nothing happened, the light didn't come on, I don't think it engaged. I clicked APP and that engaged showing G/S and something like F/S??

 

This confused me, as I thought I'd done everything correct. On my PFD, it said BZB/261(course I set), and then DME with no number, and ILS. I did have a DME at about 75 DME, I look away and look back and it's now blank, this came back before I realised that I was not low enough and imminently about to crash.

 

I was concentrating on why this wasn't working, not looking at my instruments and ended up having to go around, and then ending the flight cause I had run out of fuel.

 

I am a novice (I've only done a hand full of flights) and I've learnt from YouTube and just guess work. One thing I am confused about is setting minimums. Is that on the panel where you adjust the efis, and indicates Baro on the PFD ??

 

This isn't the first time I've struggled with landing, I can't always get the VOR to engage, and so I just click APP and VOR repetadely until something happens.

 

I'm sorry to bombard you all, I've just got a few questions that I can't seem to find answers to!

 

Many thanks for any help you can give.

Kind regards.

C

I forgot to add, the plan I used was to takeoff on runway 10 (I couldn't find a sid that fitted in my plan so just executed it on 10) and land me on 26L, but I couldn't find a STAR that brought me in, so I just clicked ILS 26L and execute, was this wrong?

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Hello "Chatster007",

 

First, one rule on this forum is to sign each post with your full nam (first and last).

 

Then for your issue:

 

_ What scenery do you have for EGKK, default fsx one or another one?

If the VOR/LOC doesn't engage, the first think to suspect is that your nav receiver doesn't get the right VOR/ILS frequency.

So it must be set to the one corresponding to your scenery (which I guess is the case if you get the frequency from the fsx map).

The second thing could be that you try to intercept the wrong localizer:

You said that the PFD displayed "BZB", does it correspond to the Loc ident of you scenery for that approach (ILS 26L)?

Be careful that the frequency is the same for both the ILS 26L and ILS 08R. So your nav receiver may catch the frequency but it could be for the opposite approach.

I don't use the default scenery but in my payware scenery where the approaches correspond to the current AIRAC, the frequency for both the ILS 26L and 08R is 110.9 both the 26L Loc ident is IWW while the 08R Loc ident is IGG.

 

When you cannot get the VOR/LOC to engage and you press the APP button, I guess the FMA displays FAC and G/P instead of LOC and G/S, doesn't it?

 

It is a roll and pitch mode specific to the B737 where the F/D gives guidance following a computed pseudo - ILS (called IAN) in absence of a proper ILS signal (like during an rnav approach). This is why you can press and get the app mode to engage while you cannot get the VOR/LOC to engage.

 

Regarding minimums:

When preparing the aircraft for an approach, you will set the minimums which means setting the MDA (Minimum Decision Altitude) or the DH (Decision Height) depending on the approach you want to set for.

Basecally, you will set a MDA  for all the approach except for ILS cat II or cat III where you will set a DH.

To do so, you will use the button on the top left of the EFIS control panel called "mins".

You will swith to "RADIO" to set a DH and to "BARO" to set a MDA.

It will display the corresponding value on the bottom right side of the PFD.

 

Last point:

If you cannot find a SID and/or a STAR corresponding to your flight plan, it can come from two mains reasons:

_ Your flight plan is wrong (you should prepare a flight plan including the correct departure and arrival for your trip).

_ The SID and STAR in your FMC don't correspond to your flight plan because either the flight plan or your FMC is outdated.

You don't have the AIRAC corresponding to your flight plan is the FMC.

 

P.S.: Videos on Youtube should be taken with caution as there is some good and some bad and they are not controlled documents. On the other hand, the tutorial provided with the NGX will give an accurate source of learning along with the FCOM and FCTM. All the information you need are there.

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P.S.: Videos on Youtube should be taken with caution as there is some good and some bad and they are not controlled documents. On the other hand, the tutorial provided with the NGX will give an accurate source of learning along with the FCOM and FCTM. All the information you need are there.

 

Great post, Romain.

 

(Just so you know, I'm referring to the whole thing and not just the one part I quoted, but I didn't want to take up too much space on the page, so I only quoted the last bit. The last part is especially true, however. Unless a YouTube video is telling you why something is required, or should be done, chances are they don't know enough to teach it.)

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 On my PFD, it said BZB/261(course I set), and then DME with no number, and ILS. I did have a DME at about 75 DME,

 

 

This may shed some light on the issue.

 

  BZB is the ident for for rwy 25 at RAF Brize Norton. The frequency for that ILS is 108.55, BUT the default FS9 (and I assume FSX) afcad has it as 111.90. There is also at Brize Norton a DME station that uses frequency 111.90.

 

If the OP had the wrong frequency in his radio, 111.90 versus 110.90, might this explain the BZB ident ?

 

Brize Norton is 64nm from Gatwick

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One more point I'd like to add.

 

Forget about lights on MCP. They mean something, but they decidedly DON'T mean that this or that mode is armed and/or engaged.

 

ALWAYS look at the PFD for that.

 

Peter: That sounds like reasonably likely case.

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Peter: That sounds like reasonably likely case.

 

I know it's been a long week, but you know it's a rough week when you start talking to yourself  :P

 

(Joking, naturally - I see the other Peter that you're referring to.)

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Ah, on the contrary - this week has been exceptionally easy. Especially since by last weekend we managed to tie up loose ends with a certain upgrade action I've been battling with for a month... I'm quite enjoying a bit of a slowdown.

 

Last week this time however... it was a different situation, you could tell me I was called Kyle and I might believe you.

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Hi,

 

Sorry about the signature.

 

Thank you for your posts, they were all very very helpful, especially Romain!!

 

It was mentioned that BZB is Briars Norton, and it has the same frequency as LGW in FSX standard.

 

How do I make it so it tunes to LGW 26L ILS and not BZB?? Is it because I tuned way out??

 

Would this be the reason VOR LOC did not arm, as I was 50+ miles away???

 

You also say that 08 is the same as 26L, how do I make it so it tunes to my correct runway??

 

I use SimBrief for my routes, and chose the one it suggested, my AIRAC is 1403, how do I identify the sids and stars at my respective airports and make it so my flight plan corresponds??

 

Sorry for another bombardment of questions. But they solved a lot whilst opening others.

 

Thank you all for your help !!

 

Kind Regards.

 

George Hunt

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Some wesites will let you select which AIRAC to base the route off of, the current cycle is 1512 I believe. By setting the proper course setting, you will fly to the correct ruwnay and not the other end. So setting something in the range of 260 will bring you to 26R and 080 to 08R (of course, those are rough numbers and the real ones should be gotten from the approach plates). The VOR/LOC likely didn't arm because you were very far away and hadn't picked up the course from whatever the other VOR/NDB was. As far as making sure you tune the correct one, find out what the frequency is in your simulator, this is exactly why in real life there arent multiple VOR's near each other with the same name or frequency. As mentioned though, you should look on the PFD to see which autopilot modes are armed or active, the MCP isn't always the best indication. Cheers,

Krikor Hajian

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Hi,

 

Do you know what AIRAC the PMDG737 NGX is using ??

 

I am planning to refly the route tonight, to see if I can put into practice what I have been told.

 

Thank you for all of your help.

 

Kind Regards,

George Hunt

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Do you know what AIRAC the PMDG737 NGX is using ??

 

It's using whatever version you've updated it to. If you're unsure of what this is, launch the sim and the AIRAC should be displayed on the IDENT page.

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Thank you all for your help!

 

My NGX is using 1108, and as I cannot afford a navigraph account, I cannot buy the upgrade. 

 

As far as I can tell I can't place a 1108 AIRAC in simBrief. Is there a way to make these work properly, or shall I just adopt the same procedure as before (just chose runway, and then click execute, and remove discontinuities accordingly).

 

Thank you all for your help so far.

Kind Regards,

George Hunt

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Unfortunately, if you cannot update the nav data of your FMC with the latest AIRAC, there is not much you can do.

For some airports, you may find some old SID leading to the first enroute point and some old STAR starting at the last enroute point when the procedures where "only updated".

For other airports where the procedures were completely changed, then you would have to vector yourself to the IAF or IF.

In any case you could try to select conventional (non-rnav) procedures where avalaible so that you can use "old" nav means (VOR / NDB) to lead you to the final approach.

They are fewer and fewer though as I can notice when flying Concorde around the world...

 

If you fly online (VATSIM / IVAO), you can advise the controler that you are unable to follow the SID/STAR and request vectors.

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Navigraph has a one time starter update that gets you to the current date and it was only something like $6.  I did that for my NGX and it's working pretty well.  That's pretty affordable and may solve your incompatibility issues.

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Thank you all for your help!

 

My NGX is using 1108, and as I cannot afford a navigraph account, I cannot buy the upgrade. 

 

As far as I can tell I can't place a 1108 AIRAC in simBrief. Is there a way to make these work properly, or shall I just adopt the same procedure as before (just chose runway, and then click execute, and remove discontinuities accordingly).

 

Thank you all for your help so far.

Kind Regards,

George Hunt

George,

 

A Navigraph account is free to create and a single cycle AIRAC update is very cheap (€7, roughly £5). You don't have to subscribe to a monthly update. Nor is this a one off starter option. You can buy single cycle updates as and when you need them. Getting the latest AIRAC will mean you can fly current procedures, but the procedures in cycle 1108 should still work in the sim. It isn't essential to update unless you fly online.

 

The apparent problem with a conflict between Brize Norton and Gatwick ILS frequencies would not be solved by an AIRAC update. AIRAC updates don't change the navaid frequency FSX has in the scenery files. However as Peter suggested I think you simply mistuned the Gatwick ILS. Even in original, unmodified FSX the Brize Norton ILS frequency is 111.90. If you tune 110.90 you will receive the Gatwick ILS.

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Hi,

 

Thank you all for your help.

 

I am on approach to EGKK as we speak, the issue is, that I want to land on 26L (110.90 261), but it will only pick up the ident for ILS 08 (110.90 079). I have fiddled with everything, but it will not pick up 26L. What can I do to make it pick up 26L and not 08R as they have the same frequencies ??

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FS9/FSX do not handle shared frequencies like this very well, but if you continue your approach it should all fall into line before you intercept the G/S.

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I'm currently 10.2 DME from IGG, so hopefully it will fall into place before VOR/LOC engages (it's armed and works)

That didn't work, it engaged VOR, and turned really early, this resulted in me coming at the Runway side on????

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Where you on the East side of the threshold of the runway 26L? 

I have never got that issue but I believe that the limit between the two ILS should be the roughly at the middle of the runway, so depending on which you come from, the nav receiver would pick either one.

I will have a flight later today to Gatwick and I will check that in fsx.

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I was coming in from EIDW ( I don't know whether it was east or west?). I managed to go around and land on runway 08 so it all turned out fine.

 

Next time I fly the flight would you recommend I fly into 08 ?

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So you were coming from the West hence probably catching the ILS 08R first.

What you could try is to de-tune the nav 1 until you have past the runway to the East and re-tune it before you turn to the loc.

If you fly by yourself without ATC, I guess you would follow the procedure depicted on the "ILS RWY 26L Without Radar Control"

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/eais-959C0106F7A8AEC8A975D1FFF067EE63/3QDXTD5E6YWTY/EN/2015-11-12-AIRAC/graphics/04860.001.en-GB.pdf

 

In that case you could try to tune the nav 1 to the ils frequency once reaching May (Mayfield VOR) where you should catch the ILS 26L and not the 08R.

 

 

Regarding the choice of runway, it all depends on the wind. So I wouldn't recommend to fly into the 08R in all case as you could be landing with tail wind exceeding the limits.

Check what is the wind and pick up the runway that will get you into the wind (head wind).

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If you are landing 26L you need to approach using the chart Budbud supplied. You need to be at 2000 feet on track 259 (or 261) approx 10 nm from IWW. Engage LOC then when captured engage APP. You will capture the G/S at D5.5 IWW. You cannot expect to accurately capture the LOC unless you intercept it at most at a 30 degree angle. 

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I have just done the test.

 

I took off on runway 26L, climbed to 4000ft and flew to MID (15nm / W of EGKK) on the SAM 1X departure, and turned back to the airport.

 

On the way back, I set the nav 1 to 110.90 and logically got IGG (ILS 08R) displayed on the PFD. I kept flying to the East passing along the runway at 10nm South of it.

 

Roughly at the level of the threshold of the runway 26L or shortly after , the display changed automatically to IWW (ILS 26L).

 

So I guess I was right when I said that the ILS signal depends on the location related to the runway.

 

 

I'm currently 10.2 DME from IGG, so hopefully it will fall into place before VOR/LOC engages (it's armed and works)
That didn't work, it engaged VOR, and turned really early, this resulted in me coming at the Runway side on????

 

I guess you have armed the VOR/LOC too early. 

Wait for the display to change to the correct ILS ident before arming the VOR/LOC. Also, during the test, I found out that with VOR/LOC armed while flying along the runway toward East, it engaged as soon as the ILS receiver caught the ILS 26L signal and the aircraft started to the turn toward the runway. I think it is what happened to you.

 

Wait for being on an intercept heading to the localizer and the correct ident displayed on the PFD before arming the VOR/LOC and you won't have the issue anymore.

 

One last think to add, I did this test with the UK2000 payware scenery and not with the default FSX scenery. Maybe it works differently.

 

It was quite of an interesting test flight as I had an unexpected sudden engine out just after lift off...  :yahoo:  

I didn't programmed it in the failures menu and I didn't know it could happen with the maintenance-base failures.

I know that bird strikes are not simulated but it was totally alike!

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