PF3 ATC Program thoughts

[Pete Dowson 558]

Personally I'm glad it uses the actual sim data-this is not always the same as AIRAC data revisions and so I've had issues with apporaches using ATC and addons that depend heavily on AIRAC data-also certain airfields that are closed/non functional in the AIRAC are no longer available to use if you depend on AIRAC.

 

ProATC actually uses both the Airac data and FS data -- it uses the latter to adjust the data from the AIRAC files to suit whatever you have installed in the Sim. I think that's pretty neat, and works well in my experience so far.

 

I do value very much having the SID and STAR stuff in the ATC program. It is much greater encouragement to actually follow them, read the charts and so on. With RC4 I tended either to simply not use them at all, or have them completely programmed into the filed plan and have to abandon them on a change of runway assignment (I only fly Europe, so runways and procedures are almost always related).

 

Pete

[Ray Proudfoot 9,013]

Ah, in that case RC4 might be the one in error, and in real life Tower can and does sometimes issue vectors! I think that's what was being said -- it's an RC4 restriction not in PF3.

 

Pete

 

Given RC4 had input from two real-world controllers you would imagine it would be as accurate as possible. I have no way of knowing if this is the case of course. It's 10 years since we worked with them.

 

 

Hi Ray,

 

At certain airports yes you would be given take-off clearance in that manner and in fact at LIMZ the Tower does really do that. It depends on traffic though.

 

That would be more realistic of course. Bet you don't get it at Heathrow. :wink:

 

I'm so used to the way RC4 does things I tend to assume it's the most accurate. The input of real-world controllers (UK and US) when the program was being written is my defence. :wink:

Hi Ray. In PF3 you can add a "SID completed" altitude for each individual airport runway. So for example at EGLL I have set 6000 for each runway. You only need do this once and it is saved. What this means is that if you elect to fly a SID departure your initial clearance will be 6000. After you reach 6000, you will shortly be cleared to a higher FL even though you may still be navigating your SID.

 

Makes sense. :smile:

 

The higher altitudes/FLs you will be cleared to (intermediate ones before filed cruise FL) will be random. sometimes you may get an early clearance to cruise, other times you may have to level off a few times before further clearance. If you wish to be at a certain intermediate altitude/FL at a certain point in your climb, you can set that up in your flightplan, but that is optional.

Very good. That was one of the complaints with RC4. The higher FLs were totally predictable. Sometimes you had intermediate FLs but mostly you didn't. A randomness to them would be a big plus.

[Bobsk8 12,800]

Having not used the other programs, can you tell me how they deal with the examples of the SID in the LIMF BOGNA 1M SID or the EGLL SIDS where the airac will contain the 6000 feet restriction all the way to the end of the SID, but in practice one would expect to be cleared to a higher FL earlier ?

 

In Pro ATC you just ask for a higher altitude. 

[SierraHotel 982]

In case anyone is interested I'm live now with the demo of PF3 ATC  

 

[Bobsk8 12,800]

ProATC actually uses both the Airac data and FS data -- it uses the latter to adjust the data from the AIRAC files to suit whatever you have installed in the Sim. I think that's pretty neat, and works well in my experience so far.

 

I do value very much having the SID and STAR stuff in the ATC program. It is much greater encouragement to actually follow them, read the charts and so on. With RC4 I tended either to simply not use them at all, or have them completely programmed into the filed plan and have to abandon them on a change of runway assignment (I only fly Europe, so runways and procedures are almost always related).

 

Pete

 

I think Pro ATC is one of the best ways to fly and practice using proper SIDS and Stars, charts and approach plates, where you really learn things like MDA flying into an airport. When I fly for my VA, I want to fly as close to real as I can get. I often listen to Live ATC on my PC and smartphone, and it is fun to listen to real pilots flying the same departures and approaches to the airports that I fly in and out of, that are the same ones that I have been using in P3D. I also know that when the weather changes, the runways, departures and approaches will follow what happens at the real airports.  

[nam1394 12]

These are videos of PFE which show the immersion part of PFE or PF3 which has more voices. Some of them are made with FS9:

 

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ApboLpUMB84" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/EC6_MDaZH0Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/SufyjqC6hqE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/KrhKvGFAPu0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/QvKEIJUwLUs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/nHRGCRYFEmI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[pschlute 37]

In Pro ATC you just ask for a higher altitude. 

 

A reasonable workaround, but unrealistic to ask for a higher altitude while flying at a published SID altitude. :smile:

 

It was you who wanted realism at all times.

 

The point is that no ATC program can exactly replicate the real world. I am sure all will have their merits and their downsides.

[nam1394 12]

I will be doing a video of PF3 with oceanic procedure as well this weekend.

[Bobsk8 12,800]

A reasonable workaround, but unrealistic to ask for a higher altitude while flying at a published SID altitude. :smile:

 

It was you who wanted realism at all times.

 

The point is that no ATC program can exactly replicate the real world. I am sure all will have their merits and their downsides.

 

That is ridiculous. If traffic allows it, and there are situations such as turbulence, or severe icing, the flight crew can always ask ATC for an altitude change. 

[pschlute 37]

That is ridiculous. If traffic allows it, and there are situations such as turbulence, or severe icing, the flight crew can always ask ATC for an altitude change. 

 

How many times do aircraft encounter turbulence or severe icing at 6000 feet just after takeoff?

 

My point is that if you are flying a published SID that has an altitude limit, ATC departure control is well aware you will want to continue your climb as soon as possible, and will tell you to do so as soon as they are able. If you are at the SID limit of 6000 you would not request a higher altitude, you would wait until ATC can clear you.

 

Your posts have criticised PF3 for lack of realism and I am simply pointing out that your method with Pro ATC is also unrealistic. No ATC program at the moment is able to create the absolute realism that many of us would like.

[vololiberista 205]

That is ridiculous. If traffic allows it, and there are situations such as turbulence, or severe icing, the flight crew can always ask ATC for an altitude change. 

You are labouring the point here! If a published SID has an altitude constraint then that is your marker so to speak. ATC can at any time clear you to a higher altitude. And you can also ask ATC to go to a higher altitude except that you the pilot should have a good reason. and those reasons are legion. Wanting to join the mile high club probably would not go down well with ATC.

[Bobsk8 12,800]

You are labouring the point here! If a published SID has an altitude constraint then that is your marker so to speak. ATC can at any time clear you to a higher altitude. And you can also ask ATC to go to a higher altitude except that you the pilot should have a good reason. and those reasons are legion. Wanting to join the mile high club probably would not go down well with ATC.

 

That is exactly what I said replying to the post claiming that asking for another altitude  was not "realistic". Didn't think Mile High Club was relevant so I omitted that in my reply.  :wink:

How many times do aircraft encounter turbulence or severe icing at 6000 feet just after takeoff?

 

My point is that if you are flying a published SID that has an altitude limit, ATC departure control is well aware you will want to continue your climb as soon as possible, and will tell you to do so as soon as they are able. If you are at the SID limit of 6000 you would not request a higher altitude, you would wait until ATC can clear you.

 

Your posts have criticised PF3 for lack of realism and I am simply pointing out that your method with Pro ATC is also unrealistic. No ATC program at the moment is able to create the absolute realism that many of us would like.

 

Happens frequently in the real world. I was listening to live ATC in Atlanta a couple of days ago, and they were experiencing icing at 4500 feet and above, reported by numerous aircraft. . All I am saying is that comparing the realism factor for a program that doesn't even use current Airacs, to one that does, pretty much tells one which tends to be more realistic. Are any sim ATC programs totally realistic, no, but some are better than others. I prefer to use the one that has more realistic features. 

[ashun 8]

Having not used the other programs, can you tell me how they deal with the examples of the SID in the LIMF BOGNA 1M SID or the EGLL SIDS where the airac will contain the 6000 feet restriction all the way to the end of the SID, but in practice one would expect to be cleared to a higher FL earlier ?

I havent flown LIMF but i can definitely tell you about EGLL SID. If you dont put height restrictions in SID of PF3, when you ask for clearance, you will be assigned initial climb altitude. You set that in MCP and take off. Your aircraft will fly initial height and speed restrictions till you reach 6000Ft. At that point you delete height restriction in FMC climb page and you will fly continuous climb to initial flight level when ATC will clear to resume your navigation and give you higher altitude. I have discussed this with real BA pilots flying B777. They told me that rarely they need to fly entire SID at 6000 and ATC will clear them to higher FL way before they reach 6000. They just delete height constraints in FMC and get continuous climb. Some times instead of VNAV, they switch to V/S in MCP to slow down speed of climb to minimize flying level segment. 

[Arwen 289]

I think it is clear yhat no 3rd party ATC is perfect, but that each one has its own strengths and weaknesses. So we all have our favorite, depending on our own personal expectations and needs. An ATC add on that works well for long flights with a FMC equipped airliner, might not work very well for a short GA flight. 

 

I only fly GA, and most of my flights are less than 1 hour long.  And it has been VERY hard to find a replacement ATC program that works well for me (and I've tried many of them, and purchased several).  So far, the one that comes closest is Pilot2ATC.  And it looks like version 2 might finally come close to meeting all my ATC needs (keeping my fingers crossed).

[Guest]

If you dont put height restrictions in SID of PF3, when you ask for clearance, you will be assigned initial climb altitude. You set that in MCP and take off. Your aircraft will fly initial height and speed restrictions till you reach 6000Ft. At that point you delete height restriction in FMC climb page and you will fly continuous climb to initial flight level when ATC will clear to resume your navigation and give you higher altitude. I have discussed this with real BA pilots flying B777. They told me that rarely they need to fly entire SID at 6000 and ATC will clear them to higher FL way before they reach 6000. They just delete height constraints in FMC and get continuous climb. 

 

The thing is that those BA pilots get clearance from ATC: you don't get that from PF3. With PF3 you have to mind your altitudes on your own and decide what you want to do on your own because ATC doesn't care what you do at all. So the question is what other ATC-addons do: do they give you clearance for a higher altitude (at random, so to speak) or do they expect you to follow the procedure to the bitter end or don't they care at all.