If the airport is quiet (EGLL???) then maybe takeoff clearance can be issued earlier. Maybe as the aircraft enters the runway. That way it's not necessary for the aircraft to stop. Anyway, with those 2 packages that's never going to happen to you! :wink:

 

Actually, I would have thought, as others here have said, that a rolling "cleared for take-off" with no line up and wait would be more efficient exactly when it is busy, provided that the runway is already clear and there's no delay needed for wake turbulence.  When it isn't very busy it is less important to take such short-cuts as the aircraft can sit on the runway doing last minute checks if it wants without affecting anyone else.

 

Pete

I'd like to hear something like "expedite" added when things are busy too, but maybe that isn't in the book for takeoffs.

 

I don't think the terminology was ever recorded even from PF2000 days. I totally agree that it would be a great enhancement. Dave has had to do quite a lot of "cutting and pasting" just to get where PF3 is today. It's certainly on the wish list if Dave can do it.

Exactly my opinion, though I've no real life experience of Heathrow ATC.

 

Pete

I spent many years living just five miles from rwy27L threshold at Heathrow. Tuned into the RT almost daily for weather etc etc. Nowadays EGLL is even more busy. It just depends on the moment whether "line-up and wait" needs to be used or "cleared for take-off" while at the hold etc.

The thing is that those BA pilots get clearance from ATC: you don't get that from PF3. With PF3 you have to mind your altitudes on your own and decide what you want to do on your own because ATC doesn't care what you do at all. So the question is what other ATC-addons do: do they give you clearance for a higher altitude (at random, so to speak) or do they expect you to follow the procedure to the bitter end or don't they care at all.

Yes you do get departure clearance with initial altitude or flight level.

They probably slow down the rate of climb to minimize the deck angle in a steeper climb for passenger comfort and to make it easier for the flight attendants to move around the cabin.

 

No. It has nothing to do with passenger comfort. Passengers don't feel it as long as rate of climb is constant. It is to comply with SID climb restrictions or ATC suggestion due to traffic. There is b777 virgin video flight from Heathrow to San fransisco. After egll take off and autopilot in command, captain switches to V/S to avert traffic.

Yes you do get departure clearance with initial altitude or flight level.

 

No. It has nothing to do with passenger comfort. Passengers don't feel it as long as rate of climb is constant. It is to comply with SID climb restrictions or ATC suggestion due to traffic. There is b7747 virgin video flight from Heathrow to San fransisco. After egll take off and autopilot in command, captain switches to V/S to avert traffic.

 

 

Yes you do get departure clearance with initial altitude or flight level.

 

I know. What I meant to ask was if ATC will give you clearance 'at random' to a higher altitude in the middle of a SID or is it either 'follow the procedure to the end' or 'we don't care what you do, see you at the initial alt'. In real life a pilot might be cleared unexpectedly to deviate from the SID because of circumstances: does that happen in PF3. 

I know. What I meant to ask was if ATC will give you clearance 'at random' to a higher altitude in the middle of a SID or is it either 'follow the procedure to the end' or 'we don't care what you do, see you at the initial alt'. In real life a pilot might be cleared unexpectedly to deviate from the SID because of circumstances: does that happen in PF3. 

 

Jeroen

 

In PF3 you can set each individual runway to have a "SID completed" altitude; or a "SID completed" waypoint; or a combination of both. What will happen is when you have reached the SID defined altitude ATC will clear you to a higher FL after a random number of minutes. Sometimes it will be almost immediate, sometimes a few minutes later.

I know. What I meant to ask was if ATC will give you clearance 'at random' to a higher altitude in the middle of a SID or is it either 'follow the procedure to the end' or 'we don't care what you do, see you at the initial alt'. In real life a pilot might be cleared unexpectedly to deviate from the SID because of circumstances: does that happen in PF3. 

Have a look at the BOGNA 1A SID from London Gatwick. The BOGNA fix itself is about 30DME from the airport. The routing for the BOGNA 1A SID is EGKK -->IWW2-->KKSO6-->30DME-->BOGNA

there is a published 6,000ft constraint all the way to BOGNA. What does 'that' actually mean? Think of it in the same way that there is a speed constraint of 250kts below 10,000ft. In this case you fly at a maximum of 250kts "unless" ATC gives you a "No speed restriction".

So going back to the SID in question the 6,000ft ceiling applies unless ATC say otherwise. The reason for the constraint is that there is a lot of traffic arriving into Gatwick from across the English Channel and they are coming in above 6,000ft. So there's a vertical separation issue. If when an a/c is flying that SID and there is nobody above then ATC will almost certainly clear them to climb before the end of the SID. Because of where I live in Europe my returnng flights from Gatwick almost always use that SID and keeping the a/c at 6,000ft all the way happens about 40% of the time. So that's how it happens in the real world.

In PF3 it's much the same. First it is correct to tell PF3 that there is a constraint all the way. Next you tell PF3 whereabouts along the SID track you expect to arrive at 6,000ft after climbing. After that it is down to PF3 and it does clear you before the end of the SID about 40% of the time. So I would say that is a good mimic of the real world.

Now, for those that have the full version already and can test it at more than 200NM distance :

How does PF3 handle a weather/runway change on a long distance flight? Would it then check if any STAR is defined for that runway or would you get vectored, well somehow, to the pseudo-FAF as defined in the settings ?

And at what distance from the FAF can you get awareness of the upcoming situation ?

 

How does PROATCX handle this ?

 

Mike

In PF3 you can set each individual runway to have a "SID completed" altitude; or a "SID completed" waypoint; or a combination of both. What will happen is when you have reached the SID defined altitude ATC will clear you to a higher FL after a random number of minutes. Sometimes it will be almost immediate, sometimes a few minutes later.

 

 

 

First it is correct to tell PF3 that there is a constraint all the way. Next you tell PF3 whereabouts along the SID track you expect to arrive at 6,000ft after climbing. After that it is down to PF3 and it does clear you before the end of the SID about 40% of the time.

 

Understood. But this is why it is a shame PF3 doesn't support Navigraph. If PF3 would have supported navdata 90% of this topic wouldn't have existed right now.

 

I want ATC to know about all kinds of constraints. I don't want to dive into option screens whenever the weather has changed and a STAR has to be used which I didn't yet add to PF3. I want ATC to assign me a STAR without any input from me when it is appropriate due to change of weather. PF3 simply can't do that because it doesn't support navdata. No matter what you all may say: to me that is a major omission. 

 

And I want ATC to see by itself when I reached 6000 ft during a SID: I certainly don't want to calculate that myself and add that info to the program so ATC knows when I am there...?! Seriously, that's the wrong way around! Why would someone want to buy an ATC add-on? Certainly not to tell it what to do! And that keeps on being the feeling I get with PF3: I control ATC while it should control me. PF3 simply requires too much input for my taste (and that's a very personal thing, I know).

Tom

 

There will be a Pilot 2 ATC flight video, but currently we are finishing up the last lose ends, ready to release the BETA hopefully in HOURS time.Also I need to record the Introduction, flight planning and tutorial flight videos.

 

So it's busy as you can appreciate.

 

Thanks 

Very interesting thread.... I decided to install the Demo version and have a go. It is quite good, I enjoy it....

 

I have just published a video in which I review PF3. I hope you find it useful and informative. It does not cover everything, but it gives you a good idea of what PF3 is about.

 

Here is the link below.... Enjoy!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ynWalj5A3s

Now, for those that have the full version already and can test it at more than 200NM distance :

How does PF3 handle a weather/runway change on a long distance flight? Would it then check if any STAR is defined for that runway or would you get vectored, well somehow, to the pseudo-FAF as defined in the settings ?

And at what distance from the FAF can you get awareness of the upcoming situation ?

 

How does PROATCX handle this ?

 

Mike

 

When the weather changes the landing runway at the destination in Pro ATC, Pro ATC automatically selects a new Star and approach if it is required at that airport for the new runway. This is done when you contact Approach control. All the Star waypoints , altitudes, and headings are changed by Pro ATC and if a transition is required, that is specified too. Very easy, and quite realistic. The exact FAF altitude, which is specified in the runway approach plate for the landing runway from Airac data,  is also on the moving map, so can be entered into FS 2 Crew arrival briefing if needed. 

Understood. But this is why it is a shame PF3 doesn't support Navigraph. If PF3 would have supported navdata 90% of this topic wouldn't have existed right now.

 

I want ATC to know about all kinds of constraints. I don't want to dive into option screens whenever the weather has changed and a STAR has to be used which I didn't yet add to PF3. I want ATC to assign me a STAR without any input from me when it is appropriate due to change of weather. PF3 simply can't do that because it doesn't support navdata. No matter what you all may say: to me that is a major omission. 

 

And I want ATC to see by itself when I reached 6000 ft during a SID: I certainly don't want to calculate that myself and add that info to the program so ATC knows when I am there...?! Seriously, that's the wrong way around! Why would someone want to buy an ATC add-on? Certainly not to tell it what to do! And that keeps on being the feeling I get with PF3: I control ATC while it should control me. PF3 simply requires too much input for my taste (and that's a very personal thing, I know).

 

I totally agree with you. I am busy flying the aircraft and don't want to have to micro manage the ATC program. It should just work on it's own. My VA also uses current Airac data so PF3 just will not work. I also just listened to the latest video that was posted on this thread, and I can't understand how people are saying that the voices are not robotic. Pro ATC sounds much more realistic, and the added ATC chatter adds so much to the immersion.  

 

 

This is done when you contact Approach control.

 

How far out do you contact Approach? It's an immovable 40nm in RC4. Just curious. :wink:

 

Also is it your responsibility to contact App or are you instructed to at the appropriate time?

How far out do you contact Approach? It's an immovable 40nm in RC4. Just curious. :wink:

 

Also is it your responsibility to contact App or are you instructed to at the appropriate time?

 

You are told when to contact approach just as in real life. The distance varies, but is generally 20-30 or more miles from your last waypoint, sometimes much more, it varies. 

You are told when to contact approach just as in real life. The distance varies, but is generally 20-30 or more miles from your last waypoint, sometimes much more, it varies. 

 

Thanks Bob. I'm curious why the distance from the last waypoint would be the trigger and not your distance from the arrival airport. Couldn't that create problems?

I also just listened to the latest video that was posted on this thread, and I can't understand how people are saying that the voices are not robotic. Pro ATC sounds much more realistic, and the added ATC chatter adds so much to the immersion.  

 

I also had a short look at the video (thanks, fnav77, much appreciated) and I agree: robotic. I also notice some audio fragments are very obviously clipped, like 'five' which sounds more like 'ive' and you can hear pops and clicks here and there which really should and could have been edited out with a simple wav editor. Yes, 119 voice sets is a lot to edit but better a few good sets than a lot of bad ones. The fact that this is the demo for which, you would presume, the best voices are used, says something too.

 

I will have a look at a few ProATC video's for comparison. EDIT: Just watched a ProATC video and it sounds a LOT better indeed. Seems it has, for instance, two recordings of each numbers one for in the middle of a series and one for the last one. So '55' at the end of a line doesn't sound like a repetition of the same audio clip but the last 5 goes down, as a voice would in real life. Nice touch. But well, it doesn't really matter because afaik ProATC doesn't support VFR so... I will have to keep on waiting for the perfect ATC add-on.  :wink: