Vololiberista, what you're describing (filing a plan, then flying it) is common in much of the world but not all of it. In my backyard (northeast US) it's common to file a STAR, then be vectored off it as controllers try to move high-volume traffic as fast as possible. So not always file and follow. It'd be nice for an ATC program to capture that kind of improv, though it's obviously a big ask.

 

Also stars and sids either at departure or approach, many times,  are determined by ATC computers, despite what the filed FP says. 

Vololiberista, what you're describing (filing a plan, then flying it) is common in much of the world but not all of it. In my backyard (northeast US) it's common to file a STAR, then be vectored off it as controllers try to move high-volume traffic as fast as possible. So not always file and follow. It'd be nice for an ATC program to capture that kind of improv, though it's obviously a big ask.

In the mid 60's I worked at Eglin AFB Approach Control. We had a 10 mile wide by 22 mile Cor from Crestview (CEW) to work our traffic. One day I had a YF-12A and Cessna 182 and a B58 along with a mix of F104s, B52's,  choppers, you name it!! No computer is going to handle that kind of goat rope or not in our lifetime anyway. All is well till one numb-nut pilot misses a call to turn and then the jig is on!! LOL

Last year I was a passenger upon a US Airways KDCA-KLGA shuttle flight and we were given a 360 on descent over New Jersey. Not sure why but the American 73 that slid by underneath us might have had something to do with it.

 

Am thinking also of a NY-area GA flight with a pilot friend. "82 Lima, that is not, repeat not a left turn you are doing. One Papa Delta, do you have the Cessna crossing in front of you?"

 

Fun times. I suppose you've got to head over to Pilotedge for that kind of thrill ride...

 

ADDITIONAL: Oddly, default ATC's complete inability to handle SIDS and STARs manages to capture a part of the East Coast experience - it's all vectors all the time. Unfortunately, the zigzag courses and 75-mile vectors into the next state don't quite cut it. So a part solution, not a whole one.

It can't vector you immediately after take-off can it!!!! PF3 can and does with ease!

Why would you needs vectoring IMMEDIATELY after take-off? If you're flying a SID then you should be left alone to fly at least part of it. The workload after takeoff is high. If an ATC program did that to me I would not be impressed. It's not how it happens in the real world.

 

RC4's first interaction is to pass you over to Departure where you would normally be cleared higher. Certainly no change to the departure headings.

LOL I have never bad mouthed a product just thought it was suppose to do something it was not and trying to figure out why its not doing what I think its suppose to be doing

 

If someone told me 17 pages of posts ago we would not be having this conversation 

 

I was going to buy it anyway to support developers god knows I have bought a lot of payware and never used it more than once

 

I executed a missed approach in my pmdg 777 at omdb and was vectored back immediately by pf3.This has NEVER happened to me with any other ATC program I have used to date. I think this is a winner and a keeper for me! Go and make the purchase -you won't regret it and you will help support the product. It's been a long time coming but we may have a decent atc replacement now. I use p3dv3.1 by the way

Jay

Oh and THANK YOU for the heads up-it was your post that made me aware it had been released.

Jay

I executed a missed approach in my pmdg 777 at omdb and was vectored back immediately by pf3.This has NEVER happened to me with any other ATC program I have used to date. I think this is a winner and a keeper for me! Go and make the purchase -you won't regret it and you will help support the product. It's been a long time coming but we may have a decent atc replacement now. I use p3dv3.1 by the way

Jay

Oh and THANK YOU for the heads up-it was your post that made me aware it had been released.

Jay

That's not necessarily a good thing Many airports, expect you too follow published missed approach procedures, not just be vectored back. Default ATC does that!

Why would you needs vectoring IMMEDIATELY after take-off? If you're flying a SID then you should be left alone to fly at least part of it.

 

 

Some SIDs are nothing but vectoring, including the one I most frequently fly:

 

https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1602/pdf/00142PAINE_C.PDF

Some SIDs are nothing but vectoring, including the one I most frequently fly:

Nevertheless, immediately after takeoff means you're still on Tower frequency. And Tower don't do vectors. You would be handed over to Departure first. How long after takeoff is "immediately"? Clarification required I would suggest.

Why would you needs vectoring IMMEDIATELY after take-off? If you're flying a SID then you should be left alone to fly at least part of it. The workload after takeoff is high. If an ATC program did that to me I would not be impressed. It's not how it happens in the real world.

 

RC4's first interaction is to pass you over to Departure where you would normally be cleared higher. Certainly no change to the departure headings.

Ray if you recall, correct me if I'm right. PFE certainly couldn't handle any waypoint at all within 10nm of the field. And I think RC4 as well. Also I believe in both programmes waypoints had to be a minimum distance apart otherwise they were rejected/dropped. The fact that PF3 can if you so wish vector you immediately from the airport means in effect that it knows exactly where you are. In my example LIMZ to LIMF. That is a 12 minute IFR flight in a jet. Complete with SID and STAR that almost make contact with each other. It was impossible to do an IFR flight from LIMZ to LIMF in PFE. But now because the "waypoints are too close" issue has been resolved in PF3 flight of that nature can be done.

Yes, outside of the FAA region SIDS and STARs are navigated by the aircraft. But because of the way PF3 handles it the handovers are much more accurately done.

That's not necessarily a good thing Many airports, expect you too follow published missed approach procedures, not just be vectored back. Default ATC does that!

Does it?I've always been left hanging or vectored out to nowhere in the past with every other program I've tried. I'm just saying that PF3 seems to track me more consistently and responds to my requests when I want-I've only just started using it but what I've seen I do like!

Jay

Nevertheless, immediately after takeoff means you're still on Tower frequency. And Tower don't do vectors. You would be handed over to Departure first. How long after takeoff is "immediately"? Clarification required I would suggest.

Well, PZ488 is only 1.6nm from TES which at the end of rwy 04R at LIPZ. And yes I fly the SID wothout vectoring. But PF3 can vector you if you wanted. So at airports where they do that then PF3 will comply!

Does it?I've always been left hanging or vectored out to nowhere in the past with every other program I've tried. I'm just saying that PF3 seems to track me more consistently and responds to my requests when I want-I've only just started using it but what I've seen I do like!

Jay

One of the major improvements from PFE to PF3 is that PF3 does know where you are exactly at all times. So now you do have the choice of flying vectors or SIDs and STARs

Ray if you recall, correct me if I'm right. PFE certainly couldn't handle any waypoint at all within 10nm of the field. And I think RC4 as well. Also I believe in both programmes waypoints had to be a minimum distance apart otherwise they were rejected/dropped.

I never used PFE so can't comment. But with RC4 you have 3 options for flying the departure. Two involved flying a SID and RC would monitor your navigation and credit you for passing a waypoint providing you were within 1nm of it. It did not issue any instructions until 30 miles out other than clearing you to higher FLs. It left you alone to fly the SID.

 

If your first waypoint is further away than 30nm then you will be given radar vectors but crucially, not immediately after take-off. You would first be passed from Tower to Departure. I would hope that is how PF3 works.

 

The fact that PF3 can if you so wish vector you immediately from the airport means in effect that it knows exactly where you are. In my example LIMZ to LIMF. That is a 12 minute IFR flight in a jet. Complete with SID and STAR that almost make contact with each other. It was impossible to do an IFR flight from LIMZ to LIMF in PFE. But now because the "waypoints are too close" issue has been resolved in PF3 flight of that nature can be done.

Yes, outside of the FAA region SIDS and STARs are navigated by the aircraft. But because of the way PF3 handles it the handovers are much more accurately done.

 

How soon is immediately? Who is issuing the instruction? Tower or Departure?

Well, PZ488 is only 1.6nm from TES which at the end of rwy 04R at LIPZ. And yes I fly the SID wothout vectoring. But PF3 can vector you if you wanted. So at airports where they do that then PF3 will comply!

One of the major improvements from PFE to PF3 is that PF3 does know where you are exactly at all times. So now you do have the choice of flying vectors or SIDs and STARs

 

How do you know which airports will issue radar vectors and which won't? You will have seen in my other reply I still don't know who is issuing these vectors. Surely a reasonable amount of time has to elapse after take-off before TWR hand you over to Departure. When does that happen with PF3?

 

One final point. If I've filed a plan that includes a SID I would not expect Departure to start issuing vectors. It should leave you alone to fly the SID and only interject if you miss a waypoint.

I executed a missed approach in my pmdg 777 at omdb and was vectored back immediately by pf3.This has NEVER happened to me with any other ATC program I have used to date. I think this is a winner and a keeper for me! Go and make the purchase -you won't regret it and you will help support the product. It's been a long time coming but we may have a decent atc replacement now. I use p3dv3.1 by the way

Jay

Oh and THANK YOU for the heads up-it was your post that made me aware it had been released.

Jay

 

Wow thats pretty cool - thanks

If you get a chance can you do a 43 mile short video on vfr scenario from KBOS RWY 22R to KPVD RWY 05 with PF3 would appreciate it much -  thank you

 

 

You don't have to enter all of it!
Look at the PFE (PF3's interface is mostly the same for this) video on SIDs and STARs: https://www.youtube....h?v=3Qi6bZ5jVA0
If you want, you can stop at second 12 of this video. Then PF3 will call your SID "Delta Papa" (departure procedure) and your STAR "Sierra Tango". Fly whatever procedure you like from your charts/GPS/FMC.
 
As soon as you want more, I suggest starting with SIDs. Select the departure airport, enter a SID name for the most likely runway to start from, optionally enter the Alt Comp so ATC's clearance matches the altitude you expect. Again optionally mark certain runways as closed (X) or landing-only (L) if you want to make sure that PF3 does not let you take off from there.
 
Similar for STARs at your destination: Enter the STAR names you want, optionally mark runways as closed, optionally enter altitudes for missed approaches.
Again optionally enter STARs for your alternate destination.
 
-> All this information is saved, so you only have to enter it once! And just enter what you need right now, you don't have to add everything!
 
Having Navigraph data would be nice, but as PF3 only needs a fraction of it, this would add a layer of complexity that is not really needed.

 

But that's not how it works. You don't know what SID you will get and you don't know what STAR you will get. You can request anything you want, but it doesn't mean you will get it. From that point of view, if I know what ATC is going to give me the entire time why even fly with ATC?

Well, you would. Only so many SID's per entry point of the airway. For some like YMML, if you filed a FP via Nonix, you'd select Nonix1 regardless of runway in use. . No other SID for that waypoint.

What might change is a shortcut in the routing by ATC and a direct to. Although I seem to notice that happens more in the STAR. I've just been watching arrivals into YMML online and one 737 was given a shortcut by the looks of it into rwy16. From what I can gather anyway using the charts available. The heavy behind it seemed to follow the STAR. 

But plenty of times flying into and out of cities here, I can tell where I am from the charts so they tend to stick fairly well to the SID/STARS. So if an ATC program could give the occasional direct to or short cuts or even extended final etc based on heavy/light traffic as happens in the real world, then you'd have a winner.

 

Because its the unexpected nature of traffic/ATC that makes descents and approaches more interesting!  

No you don't. I flew out of 4 airports in the last 2, actual airports across the US and never once did they give me the routing I requested, the SID I requested, or the STAR I thought I would be getting. Heck, most of the time you receive a STAR before you know which way the airfield is landing. I don't think I have ever received any other vectors while doing a STAR until the point in the STAR that requires it. The controllers meter you and have enough foresight on the traffic in their airspace for it to happen. I am not saying it will, but it does. Depending on the time of day, I get my SID changed mroe often than not. Early morning takeoffs, my clearance at my base airport will be the LEWIS3.  I can almost count on receiving a radar departure instead. Later in the day? Not so much.