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Ton4s

FMC Spaghetti SIDS and STARS

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Hi,

 

still learning the FMC..

 

I have Navigraph and PFPX.

 

If I plan a route, I add the SID and STAR for the the runways in the FMC. 

 

However, I have no idea which one to choose for my particular route. I know that if you pick an runway, it shows the appropriate, possible SIDS and STARS, still a lot to choose from....

 

I try to find these somewhere in programs and documentation, but no luck until now. I pick one that seems kinda ok, stepping through the legs, sometimes end up with spaghetti :)

 

 Where/how can I find the options available in the FMC on charts? (Would save me some fuel too ;-) )

 

thanks,

 

Tony

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Hi,

 

still learning the FMC..

 

I have Navigraph and PFPX.

 

If I plan a route, I add the SID and STAR for the the runways in the FMC. 

 

However, I have no idea which one to choose for my particular route. I know that if you pick an runway, it shows the appropriate, possible SIDS and STARS, still a lot to choose from....

 

I try to find these somewhere in programs and documentation, but no luck until now. I pick one that seems kinda ok, stepping through the legs, sometimes end up with spaghetti :)

 

 Where/how can I find the options available in the FMC on charts? (Would save me some fuel too ;-) )

 

thanks,

 

Tony

 

Get a program like Pro ATC X and it will assign sids and stars appropriate for the weather and airport and runway you are landing on. 

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There is no option in the FMC to pick the correct SID or STARs.  Most flightplanners will give you a SID and STAR according to the departure and arrival runway you choose in those flightplanners.

 

Another option is to look at real world flightplans on sites such as Flightaware for US flights as they will list the SID and STAR that particular flight used.  In the US those rarely change and they are not runway specific such as in Europe.  US SID and STARS basically confirm to flow direction after takeoff or direction arriving from for the arrival.

 

There are some good guides and videos on understanding SIDS and STARS that will help you understand much better how to use them.

 

 

If you need any assistance PM me and I'd be glad to help you out time permitting.

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I think I understand SIDs and STARs, At least what they are for. 

 

If I plan a flight with PFPX, it actually gives the STAR, like f.i to KLAX from KLAS :

 

3
 
KLAS
1
DIRECT
1 N 36.0801 W 115.1523 2181
-----
1
0
 
1
2181
-
-1000000
-1000000
 
TNP
5
BASET3
1 N 34.1122 W 115.7699 0 
0
0
0
 
KLAX
1
-
1 N 33.9424 W 118.4081 128
-----
0
0
 
1
128
-
-1000000
-1000000
 
-------------------------------------------------------
 
BASET3 is the STAR. (ILS 25R)
 
If I load the route in the FMC (with co-route) the STAR is not in the flightplan. It has two BASET3 variants of the STAR available however. If I select either one of them, the spaghetti starts. 
 
Making me crazy :(

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Are you sure you selected the correct arrival runway in PFPX? I am using an older version of navData but from what I can see BASET3 arrival is only available for rwy 06/07. This might explain the strange route you saw.

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BASET3 is the STAR. (ILS 25R)
PFPX usually picks BASET3 for an arrival from the northeast. On FlightAware I have never seen it used. According to FlightAware BOACH6 HEC RIIVR2 is the route being used by AAL 145 today. For flights within the United States Flightaware will have the route. The link to the site is - http://flightaware.com/. For flights within the U.S., I copy/paste the route from FlightAware into PFPX and then build it. Don't use PFPX to find routes within the U.S. unless you can't find a real world route.

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I am a bit sure:

baset.jpg

 

DEP: KLAS/LAS 19R 
 
AWY      WAYPOINT   MT    ALT  WND/VEL   TAS   REM  FUEL REM / USED   LEG   ACC
         NAME             TMP     FREQ    GS  DIST  POSITION          ETO / ATO
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
         KLAS/19R      2181                        8.6 /   0.3            
         MC CARRAN INTL                      255  N3604.8 W11509.1 ...../.....
 
         *TOC      183FL340    302/046  450     87       5.7 /   3.3 :15   00:15
                          -54           461    168  N3440.8 W11535.8 ...../.....
 
DCT      TNP       182FL340    302/038  449     35       5.3 /   3.7 :04   00:19
         TWENTYNINE PALMS -54   114.20  460    133  N3406.7 W11546.2 ...../.....
 
         *TOD      248FL340    302/038  449     32       4.9 /   4.0 :05   00:24
                          -54           421    101  N3401.3 W11623.7 ...../.....
 
BASET3   IPHIW     248*DES                 4       4.8 /   4.1 :01   00:25
                                              97  N3400.6 W11628.4 ...../.....
 
BASET3   ARRVD     252*DES                13       4.8 /   4.1 :01   00:26
                                              84  N3359.1 W11644.0 ...../.....
 
BASET3   KONZL     252*DES                19       4.8 /   4.1 :04   00:30
                                              65  N3357.3 W11706.7 ...../.....
 
BASET3   TRTLE     252*DES                 6       4.8 /   4.2 :01   00:31
                                              59  N3356.6 W11713.9 ...../.....
 
BASET3   PDZ       252*DES                15       4.7 /   4.2 :02   00:33
         PARADISE ONTARIO     112.20          44  N3355.1 W11731.8 ...../.....
 
BASET3   CACTS     268*DES                 6       4.7 /   4.2 :02   00:35
                                              38  N3356.1 W11738.9 ...../.....
 
BASET3   BASET     267*DES                17       4.6 /   4.3 :03   00:38
                                              22  N3358.7 W11758.7 ...../.....
 
BASET3   DOWNE     251*DES                 7       4.5 /   4.4 :02   00:40
                                              14  N3357.9 W11807.4 ...../.....
 
BASET3   REEDR     251  128    078/000  258      8       4.5 /   4.5 :02   00:42
                          +18           234      7  N3356.9 W11816.6 ...../.....
 
BASET3   KLAX/25R  254  128                7       4.3 /   4.6 :02   00:44
         LOS ANGELES INTL                         N3356.5 W11824.5 ...../.....
 
ARR: KLAX/LAX 25R 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

My problem is not finding the correct "real life" route. The route above is a flyable one.

 

However, how can I let the FMC execute it?

 

Thats where I am stuck :(

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For LAX landing west, coming from the northeast you will pretty much always get the RIIVR arrival. Coming from the east it will be the SEAVU. coming from the north it will be the SADDE. the only time you will see the BASET is when they are landing to the east except after midnight when they switch to the noise abatement flow you will get the REDEYE. Coming from the west it's almost always the SADDE but I have gotten the LEENA which was then switched to the BUFIE. I've only ever approached from the south once and don't recall which one they gave us that time. I've never been assigned any of the other current LAX arrivals.

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Ah, the BASET3 STAR is not complete in the STARS database of the NGX I guess. If I load the flightplan and add the missing waypoints manually between TNP and BASET the STAR is complete....  :fool:

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The BASET3 is not an appropriate STAR for any of the 24s or 25s. It's for landing east.

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And I think I know how I get my spaghetti. The BASET3 star is loaded, but incomplete. I then add a BASET STAR form the FMC menu, and voila, purple lines all over :)


The BASET3 is not an appropriate STAR for any of the 24s or 25s. It's for landing east.

 

Ok. I just use PFPX, it gives me that.

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the data is not incomplete.

 

you get the points from TNP to BASET by selecting TNP as the transition when you select the STAR.

 

it is sort of moot since the point of that star is that you get vectors from REEDR to southwest of the airport and back around from atc. there is no way you could decend from the 9000 ft crossing restriction at REEDR and land at the ILS25 that is less than 5nm away. 

 

take a look at the chart for BASET3 and you will see the final step is to cross REEDER at 9000 at heading 210 and you will get vectors to 6/7 . (chart is at http://www.airnav.com/airport/KLAX

 

in the data in the fmc this also shows up, after REEDR you will see an (INTC) entry followed by a (VECTOR) entry.

 

it is also sort of moot as you wouldn't get TNP direct from KLAS either, although BOACH6 has a TNP transition.

PFPX is a great tool!! but do not trust it blindly!!! it does not necessarily have all these details which is why it is useful to look at the real world routes. especially if you are still learning how all this stuff works.

 

PFPX has not a complete understanding that this STAR is used for 6/7 because it is not technically an official requirement, it does a better job with european stars in this area where there is typically only one STAR per runway instead of a STAR that ends in vectors which is very common at large USA airports.

 

cheers

-andy crosby

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the data is not incomplete.
 
you get the points from TNP to BASET by selecting TNP as the transition when you select the STAR.

 

Ah....

 

Just learning  :smile:

 

How it is in real life, alah.

 

My goal, for now, is to learn how to use the FMC. I just fly around a bit, short flights, and solve spaghetties  :dance:


Oh. BTW.

 

Enormous big thanks for the help !

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Where/how can I find the options available in the FMC on charts? (Would save me some fuel too ;-) )

Look at this video by Kyle Rodgers - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEwvDVM-k54. It will provide an understanding of SIDS and STARS and how they fit into the scheme of routes.

 

This is the core route for KJFK-KMIA  -  WAVEY EMJAY J174 SWL CEBEE WETRO DIW AR22 JORAY departing 04L and arriving 08R. Without using the FMC see if you can come up with the SID and STAR for this route.

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This is the core route for KJFK-KMIA  -  WAVEY EMJAY J174 SWL CEBEE WETRO DIW AR22 JORAY departing 04L and arriving 08R. Without using the FMC see if you can come up with the SID and STAR for this route.

 

 

 

Oh Boy, ehhh

 

Looking at Navigraph:

 

DEP: It says, Wavey: expect vectors to R156 (115.9 JFK)

ARR: RILEY6

 

Anyways, did the return to KLAS, PFPX came up with something, but I used an actual route from flightaware : KLAX LOOP8 DAG KEPEC3 KLAS. No spaghetti, just an S  :) Since i did a downwind 01L :)

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the data is not incomplete.

 

you get the points from TNP to BASET by selecting TNP as the transition when you select the STAR.

 

it is sort of moot since the point of that star is that you get vectors from REEDR to southwest of the airport and back around from atc. there is no way you could decend from the 9000 ft crossing restriction at REEDR and land at the ILS25 that is less than 5nm away.

I'll argue that the data isn't so much "incomplete" as incorrect. As I read the Arrival Route Description, because it specifies RW6L/R and 7L/R, the arrival should be coded in the FMS as runway specific. This is how the European SIDs/STARs are coded, as are many US procedures. This isn't an issue with Navigraph, but likely the data provider (Jeppesen) reading the ARD with a bit more ambiguity. Any pilot should be able to look at the ARD and see that you'd never get the BASET arrival unless you were expecting to land east flow.

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I'll argue that the data isn't so much "incomplete" as incorrect. As I read the Arrival Route Description, because it specifies RW6L/R and 7L/R, the arrival should be coded in the FMS as runway specific. This is how the European SIDs/STARs are coded, as are many US procedures. This isn't an issue with Navigraph, but likely the data provider (Jeppesen) reading the ARD with a bit more ambiguity. Any pilot should be able to look at the ARD and see that you'd never get the BASET arrival unless you were expecting to land east flow.

 

hi! yeah, as far as being incomplete i was referring to his not seeing the complete waypoints of the TNP transition as part of theSTAR in the FMS, as they will only be entered into the flightplan if the transition is selected when the STAR is selected.

 

as far as the other issue with PFPX incorrectly assigning the STAR in the first place, yeah it is either an omission or miscommunication in the data. from talking to the dev from voxatc a long time ago there was some confusion about a lot of american STARs specifically because they are not officially restricted to a specific runway, and thus the navigraph does not fully reflect those restrictions, so it is difficult for an automated program to make a decision about which one is appropriate even though in practice they would only be used for specific runways. i don't really know all the details about why that would need to be stored differently or what is gained by not doing it that way, but i'm sure somebody does lol..

 

cheers

-andy crosby

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DEP: It says, Wavey: expect vectors to R156 (115.9 JFK)

ARR: RILEY6



Anyways, did the return to KLAS, PFPX came up with something, but I used an actual route from flightaware : KLAX LOOP8 DAG KEPEC3 KLAS. No spaghetti, just an S :) Since i did a downwind 01L
Getting closer. For Departure I would use JFK3 and then Vectors to WAVEY. The Arrival is right. It is just misspelled. It should be HILEY6. At KLAS, KEPEC3 is used for 25L and 25R. It shows that clearly on the Approach Plate. For 01L I would use CRESO3 with Vectors to the 01ILS Approach after WHIGG and see how that looked on the ND by stepping thru the route. 

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Hi,

 

still learning the FMC..

 

I have Navigraph and PFPX.

 

If I plan a route, I add the SID and STAR for the the runways in the FMC.

 

However, I have no idea which one to choose for my particular route. I know that if you pick an runway, it shows the appropriate, possible SIDS and STARS, still a lot to choose from....

 

I try to find these somewhere in programs and documentation, but no luck until now. I pick one that seems kinda ok, stepping through the legs, sometimes end up with spaghetti :)

 

Where/how can I find the options available in the FMC on charts? (Would save me some fuel too ;-) )

 

thanks,

 

Tony

Better than that...how about VISUAL SIDS/STARS/APPROACHES TO SEE what to plan??

 

look at 3:26

 

Hope this helps

Chas

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One tip you may or may not find helpful:

 

If you turn the MFD knob one click right off MAP to PLN, it will give you an option on your LEGS page in the FMC that says "STEP", clicking this will allow you to step through each leg of your route and see what it looks like on the MFD. If your STAR is totally the wrong (sending you in the wrong direction) one you'll see it there.

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as far as the other issue with PFPX incorrectly assigning the STAR in the first place, yeah it is either an omission or miscommunication in the data. from talking to the dev from voxatc a long time ago there was some confusion about a lot of american STARs specifically because they are not officially restricted to a specific runway, and thus the navigraph does not fully reflect those restrictions, so it is difficult for an automated program to make a decision about which one is appropriate even though in practice they would only be used for specific runways. i don't really know all the details about why that would need to be stored differently or what is gained by not doing it that way, but i'm sure somebody does lol..
 

Just for follow up on this, I went and looked at the FAA suggested coding for the arrival, which listed it as applicable for all runways. This is likely what Jeppesen followed for their data. Other data providers may modify the coding to be consistent with the ARD. 

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I am a bit sure:

 

baset.jpg

 

DEP: KLAS/LAS 19R 
 
AWY      WAYPOINT   MT    ALT  WND/VEL   TAS   REM  FUEL REM / USED   LEG   ACC
         NAME             TMP     FREQ    GS  DIST  POSITION          ETO / ATO
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
         KLAS/19R      2181                        8.6 /   0.3            
         MC CARRAN INTL                      255  N3604.8 W11509.1 ...../.....
 
         *TOC      183FL340    302/046  450     87       5.7 /   3.3 :15   00:15
                          -54           461    168  N3440.8 W11535.8 ...../.....
 
DCT      TNP       182FL340    302/038  449     35       5.3 /   3.7 :04   00:19
         TWENTYNINE PALMS -54   114.20  460    133  N3406.7 W11546.2 ...../.....
 
         *TOD      248FL340    302/038  449     32       4.9 /   4.0 :05   00:24
                          -54           421    101  N3401.3 W11623.7 ...../.....
 
BASET3   IPHIW     248*DES                 4       4.8 /   4.1 :01   00:25
                                              97  N3400.6 W11628.4 ...../.....
 
BASET3   ARRVD     252*DES                13       4.8 /   4.1 :01   00:26
                                              84  N3359.1 W11644.0 ...../.....
 
BASET3   KONZL     252*DES                19       4.8 /   4.1 :04   00:30
                                              65  N3357.3 W11706.7 ...../.....
 
BASET3   TRTLE     252*DES                 6       4.8 /   4.2 :01   00:31
                                              59  N3356.6 W11713.9 ...../.....
 
BASET3   PDZ       252*DES                15       4.7 /   4.2 :02   00:33
         PARADISE ONTARIO     112.20          44  N3355.1 W11731.8 ...../.....
 
BASET3   CACTS     268*DES                 6       4.7 /   4.2 :02   00:35
                                              38  N3356.1 W11738.9 ...../.....
 
BASET3   BASET     267*DES                17       4.6 /   4.3 :03   00:38
                                              22  N3358.7 W11758.7 ...../.....
 
BASET3   DOWNE     251*DES                 7       4.5 /   4.4 :02   00:40
                                              14  N3357.9 W11807.4 ...../.....
 
BASET3   REEDR     251  128    078/000  258      8       4.5 /   4.5 :02   00:42
                          +18           234      7  N3356.9 W11816.6 ...../.....
 
BASET3   KLAX/25R  254  128                7       4.3 /   4.6 :02   00:44
         LOS ANGELES INTL                         N3356.5 W11824.5 ...../.....
 
ARR: KLAX/LAX 25R 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

My problem is not finding the correct "real life" route. The route above is a flyable one.

 

However, how can I let the FMC execute it?

 

Thats where I am stuck :sad:

Using Flightaware.com it's easy to find out what route is commonly being used between most North American airports. For KLAX to KLAS its...

 

LOOP8 DAG KEPEC3

 

extremely easy to enter into the PMDG's FMC.

 

Dave

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Yes, I will...

 

Hoped that PFPX made my life easy, ehhh click and fly :)

 

But.

 

Tony


Better than that...how about VISUAL SIDS/STARS/APPROACHES TO SEE what to plan??

look at 3:26

Hope this helps
Chas

 

Thats pretty nice.

 

But, bought enough stuff for now. Even the sim says Banking, Banking all the time :(

 

Tony

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PFPX usually picks BASET3 for an arrival from the northeast. On FlightAware I have never seen it used. According to FlightAware BOACH6 HEC RIIVR2 is the route being used by AAL 145 today. For flights within the United States Flightaware will have the route. The link to the site is - http://flightaware.com/. For flights within the U.S., I copy/paste the route from FlightAware into PFPX and then build it. Don't use PFPX to find routes within the U.S. unless you can't find a real world route.

I had no idea you could do this... thanks!!

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