Sign in to follow this  
Alpha Floor

Have a look at this 777 Cockpit Take-Off

Recommended Posts

 

 

Jump to minute 3. Note the following:

 

- The big chunk of red on the ND toward which they are taking-off. They must have their reasons, but hey, it's interesting...

- The FO resting his left hand on the yoke like that. That's not a proper technique for grabbing the yoke.

- The FO's watch hanging is going to get stuck at something... 

 

Just posting this as an example that sometimes real pilots are not "exemplary". A PC pilot sees this and then goes saying: "You HAVE to put your inboard hand on top of the horn of the yoke, I saw a real pilot doing it!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Help AVSIM continue to serve you!
Please donate today!

 

 

- The FO resting his left hand on the yoke like that. That's not a proper technique for grabbing the yoke.

 

I'm feeling quite uncomfortable by just watching this.

I realize that there are different ways of how to hold a steering wheel in a car, but with a yoke like that, the horns are not meant to be grabbed like this. I totally agree.

Thanks for sharing!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks!

 

 

 


different ways of how to hold a steering wheel in a car

 

Oh don't get me started on that one! hahaha

So many discussions I've had with people not holding the wheel properly... Now I just don't care anymore, I always try to be the one driving to avoid this, haha

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He does correct the "steering wheel hold" after takeoff lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Taking off into the red doesn't necessarily mean there will be windshear though, does it? Isn't that really what you're worried about at low level? I'm not arguing, by the way, I'm asking as I'd like to know the answer. Would other pilots have refused to takeoff into the red?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The next time I have to fly anywhere in a 777 I hope one of you guys in the captains seat and not that Bozo! LOL! :-P

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Taking off into the red doesn't necessarily mean there will be windshear though, does it?

 

It doesn't, no. Windshear and precipitation are different things. The weather radar on the 777 has a predictive windshear system (PWS). It's independent from the actual GPWS windshear "detection" system (which detects when the plane already IS in windshear). The PWS is not foolproof, as anything that's "predictive" can't be trusted 100%.

 

A map full of red like that is telling you that there's intense storm activity and CBs, which are generally accompanied by turbulence. Also if there's activity under a storm winds are not "unsurprising"; so rolling winds and windshear are a possibility.

 

 

 

Would other pilots have refused to takeoff into the red

 

I don't know. Probably SOP dependent or at Captain's discretion. Pilots must not take-off if there's a reasonable chance of windshear in the area, but as I said, precipitation and windshear are different things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not to be the party pooper, but I'm distinctly uncomfortable "armchair quarterbacking" the performance and actions of a crew who are, presumably, qualified and experienced professionals.

 

Bear in mind that in the tropics, heavy rainstorms are very common. The radar shows precipitation. In a tropical squall, you will see lots of red. That does not mean to say that it is automatically dangerous: it requires experience (and training, naturally) to interpret the weather radar returns and judge which area of red is a harmless rainshower and which is a dangerous CB.

 

And seriously -- criticising the way the FO rests (and "rests" is the operative word here, because that is all he is doing having removed it from the thrust levers) his "spare" hand (given he is actually flying the aeroplane with his right hand) on the yoke? Whilst I doubt it's something taught in type training, is it dangerous? Does it cost money? Will it break the aeroplane? Will it cause undue wear and tear on any of the equipment? Is it going to interfere with the other pilot? Will it burn excess fuel? Is it going to distract the FO from carrying out a safety-critical action?

 

If not, then frankly where he chooses to rest his hand is up to him. No?

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Simon, regarding the weather itself, I won't argue with you. As I said in my OP, they must have their reasons.

 

But I don't agree in that:

 

 


where he chooses to rest his hand is up to him. No?

 

When the F/O takes off he's flying with BOTH hands on the wheel and BOTH hands must grab it correctly. He shouldn't be "resting" his left hand in the first place.

 

If anyone has seen the AeroLogic 777 taking-off from Hong Kong (PilotsEye) will see how the F/O "correctly" holds the yoke with both hands.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not to be the party pooper, but I'm distinctly uncomfortable "armchair quarterbacking" the performance and actions of a crew who are, presumably, qualified and experienced professionals.

No, not "presumably". These people are paid, trained professionals who know PRECISELY what they're doing. It's one thing for simmers to talk about how realistic X or Y is, or have the infamous 'could I land the plane if the pilots died' conversation. It's an entirely different thing to see people who have never touched anything bigger than a 172 criticize what actual airline pilots do in the cockpit. Was there red on the ND? Sure. It his watch dangly? I guess. Should he hold the yoke differently? Maybe. But I have absolutely no place to question anything of the above because 1)I was not there and don't know the context 2)I am not an airline pilot and have not received the years of training these two have. 

 

You call it "armchair quarterbacking", and that may be a bit gentle. I'd call it "debilitating, painfully out-of-place smugness". 

  • Upvote 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hamoody, you might be right, but some things are just common sense. Even paid and trained people sometimes do things in an "unorthodox" way. I work as a design engineer and often see engineers with years of experience and university education doing stupid things, I guess this applies to every job.

 

For instance, I don't need to be a real pilot to see what the Asiana 214 pilots did and judge that they didn't know how to fly a 777.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 


For instance, I don't need to be a real pilot to see what the Asiana 214 pilots did and judge that they didn't know how to fly a 777.

 

That accident wasn't down to the pilots not knowing how to fly a 777. They knew how to fly a 777. They know a lot more about flying a 777 than you ever will. It came down to negligence and not being completely situationally aware. The pilot flying was in the checkride stage. New to the type. Every single 777 pilot has been there done that. The captain wasn't paying enough attention and didn't have the systems knowledge required to avoid the accident. Does that mean he can't fly a 777? No. It means he hasn't sat in front of a computer reading through manuals and learning every single ins and outs. Should he have had that knowledge? Of course he should have. That does not mean he cannot fly the aircraft. 

 

I'm seeing an increasing theme with your posts. You have this idea that because you've read through the various 777 docs that you're suddenly a professional on the 777 and your opinion should be higher regarded than others, when in reality you're far from it. You are not a 777 pilot. You probably never will be. These pilots have had years of training and years of experience on that aircraft. They know it better than you or me. You have no right and no place to sit and criticise a pilot's technique when you yourself aren't even a pilot. Sure if a RW 777 pilot had come along and criticised those pilots people might think fair enough, they have a right to being on equal terms. 

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chris, with all of my respect:

 

- You clearly didn't read that accident report because if you had, you wouldn't be saying those things.

- You have no business in saying what I am or will be or will "probably never" be.

- The "you are not a real pilot therefore shut up" argument is kind of annoying and tiresome...

 

Over and out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to side with Jaime on this one, I too am type rated on the PMDG 777.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree. I have zero issues in how he is holding the yoke. In fact, usually the yoke is held in the "normal" way for access to the various buttons on it. If he has no use in pressing them, then it doesn't matter how he holds it, as long as he is making positive control. I have no idea how much real world experience Alpha Floor has, but it seems like an arm-chair quarterback situation. 

 

I have seen people hold the controls (Both a cyclic/collective and yoke/throttle setup) in a few different ways, all were TECHNIQUE and perfectly okay. Remember, when training, you train standards and not technique. Show me in the black and white where it says exactly how to hold the yoke. The guy was fine and I would have zero issues flying with him from what I saw.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting, how the opinions and stances differ on this. I don't want to argue about "armchair quarterbacking" here, but I do want to say this:

Just because a pilot usually has lots of training and experience, doesn't necessarily make him a good pilot. Pilots are human after all and can make mistakes or develop bad habits. The vast majority do a good job - but then again, you also have the wide range from "does a miraculous job of safely ditching his A320 in the river", all the way to "deliberately crashes his A320 into a mountain".

It may not be appropriate to judge a person with higher qualification, but using the killer argument "he's a pilot, he knows what he's doing" isn't necessarily very helpful either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Humans will be humans. You guys making a big deal out of where the guys hand is... whilst not perhaps the best place, if that's his comfortable position, then leave him to it. Its not like he is having to use much force anyway, its not a 707. You could probably rotate the damn thing using your index finger only.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

is  there  anywhere  in the fcom or  boeing  manuals  on how  to hold  the  yoke,  seems  you all making  a big  deal on how he  holds  his hands, and iam  pretty  sure  if  you really look hard  at  other  videos  iam sure  you will find  some  more

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a common thing called routine. Most people with 10 years of driving experience wouldn't pass a license tests anymore, because they are not doing everything by the book after so much time. That doesnt mean they are unfit to drive a car. Same applies to airplanes I guess.

 

If I were that FO, and someone would boss me about that hand on the yoke prior to takeoff without being able to explain to me why thats unprofessional, i'd consider him an A-hole.

 

just my two cents....

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

why thats unprofessional

 

Because you'd be applying an undesirable torque on the wheel. To compensate for this torque, his right hand will be pulling down. During the take-off roll you may have to "slightly" use ailerons in case that a wind gust blows one of your wings up. To be prepared for this, it's better to hold the yoke properly.

 

As said above, the 777 can be flown with ones fingertips, the yoke is very sensitive. Not a good idea to use it as a hand-rest during a take-off.

 

As of cars, most drivers don't know how to hold a car wheel. The fact that they don't crash the car each time they go for a drive does not prove them right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 


- You clearly didn't read that accident report because if you had, you wouldn't be saying those things.

 

What did I say that was false?

 

 

 


- You have no business in saying what I am or will be or will "probably never" be.

 

Just like you have no business criticising a real world pilot on how they do their job. 

 

 

 


- The "you are not a real pilot therefore shut up" argument is kind of annoying and tiresome...

 

May be tiresome and annoying to you, but it's true. Unless you have gone through the same training and experiences as a real world 777 pilot, you really don't have any argument in the matter. 

 

 

 


It may not be appropriate to judge a person with higher qualification, but using the killer argument "he's a pilot, he knows what he's doing" isn't necessarily very helpful either.

 

I'm not sure if that was directed at myself but I will point out that I didn't use that argument. My argument was "you're not a pilot, you do not have the hours of training and hours of experience required to make any critical comment on any pilot".

 

The fact of the matter is that someone with zero experience in the matter has publicly criticized a real world pilot in an open forum with no basis for their criticism. Had the OP been a real world pilot, the OP would never have made this post in the first place because there's a line between being critical in a helpful way (professional) and downright rude (completely uncalled for and unprofessional). 

 

 

 


Jaime Beneyto

 

I see you've linked your LinkedIn profile. If Jim the cleaner came along and started criticising how you did your job as an engineer, how would you react? Or if you stumbled across a forum with someone criticising your work? Did you even consider the real world implications of your post? Did you consider that that person is an actual qualified pilot somewhere in the world, and that criticising him in an open forum could not only have an effect on him emotionally, but also on his career as a pilot.

 

TL;DR you wouldn't want someone bashing how you do your job behind your back without you knowing, why do it to someone else, especially if you have zero experience on the matter.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because you'd be applying an undesirable torque on the wheel. To compensate for this torque, his right hand will be pulling down. During the take-off roll you may have to "slightly" use ailerons in case that a wind gust blows one of your wings up. To be prepared for this, it's better to hold the yoke properly.

 

As said above, the 777 can be flown with ones fingertips, the yoke is very sensitive. Not a good idea to use it as a hand-rest during a take-off.

 

As of cars, most drivers don't know how to hold a car wheel. The fact that they don't crash the car each time they go for a drive does not prove them right.

 

I still disagree. As someone with a scientific background I know that current rules are based on past experience and research, but this research is always subject to verification and falsification and is therefore little more than a "higher-grade" oppinion.

 

I do also hold my steering wheel as I see fit, because over the years I developed a feel for my car, an experienced driver can also judge wether there is a risk of crosswinds on the road or not, by the way the controls and the seat under you feel. A pilot with some 1000+ hours on the 777 may develop a feeling for the aircraft too. In fact its desirable that he does. ;)

 

If there were no strong winds in the video takeoff, why take preperations as if you were taking off into a hurricane? ;)

 

And still: do you know how sensitive the controls of a 777 are? I highly doubt a multi-million-dollar-boeing is built with the same flaws as a game joystick and since an airplane on takeoff and landing is vibrating, there might be FBW filters in place to tell an undesired input from a desired one. Even some computer games use the same, its called mouse smoothing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Soulflight, I appreciate you don't "attack" me personally and express your arguments in a polite way :)

 

 

 


If there were no strong winds in the video takeoff, why take preperations as if you were taking off into a hurricane? ;)

 

For one: They are taking off into a big chunk of red on the Navigation Display. This might be a good "warning" that there "might" be some wind ahead.

 

Another one, much more important if you will: Consistency. A pilot wants to develop good flying habits and apply them ALWAYS, not just when he "feels" like there might be some wind or not.

 

 

 


And still: do you know how sensitive the controls of a 777 are?

 

I haven't touched those controls myself, no, but this video here might give you a good idea.

Anyway, control sensitivity is "irrelevant" really. You're supposed to hold the wheel properly in any case.

 

PS: See here how the pilot holds the yoke with both hands after V1.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

I'm not sure if that was directed at myself but I will point out that I didn't use that argument. My argument was "you're not a pilot, you do not have the hours of training and hours of experience required to make any critical comment on any pilot".

 

That was directed at the general discussion. However, by your logic, you would also have to be a politician to have the right to criticize the government - or even to vote maybe? I see your point, of course, but I disagree that someone may not voice his concerns if he isn't as professional.

By the way, I don't feel like Jaime wanted to openly denounce the first officer. He noticed that some things might have been out of the ordinary and wanted to share his thoughts. At least that's how I took it in.

This topic is really getting way out of hand, especially since it's in no sense relevant to the PMDG product...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't feel like Jaime wanted to openly denounce the first officer.

 

No, I did not.

 

The main reason I opened this thread was to show that sometimes pilots are not "exemplary", which is understandable because they are HUMAN and make mistakes like we all do. I did it because of the fact that many people see a real pilot doing something and they automatically think that that's how it must be done, always. They don't question anything and have blind faith on the pilot.

 

Unfortunately the trees don't let some people see the forest.

 

 

This topic is really getting way out of hand, especially since it's in no sense relevant to the PMDG product...

 

Yes, and I'm sorry for that. I should have posted this thread in the Hangar Chat (or not at all). My apologies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this