Jaime,

 

I understood what you we're trying to say. I'm also used to being critized by FTEs during test flights .

 

That being said, I agree it looks a little unprofessional, but there nothing written as to how old the yoke during take (that's my assumption for this case especifically).

 

Would I say something to my copilot flying like that, absolutely, specially if I'm instructing.

Well, this escalated quickly.... 

That accident wasn't down to the pilots not knowing how to fly a 777. They knew how to fly a 777. They know a lot more about flying a 777 than you ever will. It came down to negligence and not being completely situationally aware. The pilot flying was in the checkride stage. New to the type. Every single 777 pilot has been there done that. The captain wasn't paying enough attention and didn't have the systems knowledge required to avoid the accident. Does that mean he can't fly a 777? No. It means he hasn't sat in front of a computer reading through manuals and learning every single ins and outs. Should he have had that knowledge? Of course he should have. That does not mean he cannot fly the aircraft. 

 

I'm seeing an increasing theme with your posts. You have this idea that because you've read through the various 777 docs that you're suddenly a professional on the 777 and your opinion should be higher regarded than others, when in reality you're far from it. You are not a 777 pilot. You probably never will be. These pilots have had years of training and years of experience on that aircraft. They know it better than you or me. You have no right and no place to sit and criticise a pilot's technique when you yourself aren't even a pilot. Sure if a RW 777 pilot had come along and criticised those pilots people might think fair enough, they have a right to being on equal terms. 

The pilot of the Asiana 777 did not understand the auto throttle system that led to the airplane approaching stall speed on landing - David Lee

So I saw this thread go up over the weekend and left it on the assumption that people were just enjoying the video someone posted. I know it might not seem like it, but there are definitely threads where I see the title and think to myself "no need for me to be in there to add my comments." Since it picked up more than a couple pages of comments, though, I thought I should stop in and see what's going on that has kept it going this long.

 

...and I'm glad I did.

 

 

 

I, personally, find the initial post to be pretty nit picky, which I see others have also noticed. The squabble that then ensued only made it worse. All of you can knock it right off.

 

To address the initial points:

1. As has been mentioned, the red merely indicates strength of precip. If turbulence and shear were not concerns, I don't see the issue, particularly if you are turning soon after departure to avoid it.
2. This doesn't matter. You can see his other hand is on the other side to counter the rotational force. Moreover, having been in a 744 sim recently, I can say that it requires deliberate action to get movement out of the yoke. This isn't an Airbus sidestick (and no, that's not a shot at an Airbus - I have a tiny bit of sim time there, too, and I was impressed by it...don't necessarily like it, but I was still impressed).
3. I don't see too much of an issue. It would annoy me to have it so loose, but I don't believe it's a safety concern.

 

 

To address the latter points:

 

Just because someone has the hours, and the training, does not make them good pilots. That isn't a shot at pilots. It's a fact. It happens everywhere. I played baseball for 10+ years and took all kinds of training classes. My dad was also scouted to go to the majors as a pitcher when he was back at university. I had a great instructor for pitching in my dad, and I had many other mentors. I SUCKED at pitching despite the hours and training I had for it. Even playing other positions for nearly a decade never got me to a skill point where I would be picked up even for a college team. Why? Mostly effort. If you want to do well, you will drive yourself to do well. If you do not, then you will not. This is true for a sport, a skill, or a job. Pilots don't just get a pass from this concept.

 

That being said, there is obviously a little bit of an understandable push back against someone who might not have the same experience criticizing those who do. I'm split on that issue, personally. If it's something pretty obvious, then I don't see an issue. If it's nit picky, however, my hackles rise a bit. One should avoid assuming they know enough to understand the minutia of operations without experience in those operations. If someone who'd never biked before knew enough about bike helmets to know that someone was wearing theirs backwards (sounds stupid but you see this all the time), it isn't an issue for someone to point that out to someone else. If you aren't an avid cyclist and criticize me for a properly executed Idaho Stop because you see it - as an 'outsider' - as dangerous, don't be surprised if I give you a nasty look and ignore you. Notional safety does not mean actual safety.

 

Jaime does have a point that not all pilots are exemplary. At one point in my past, I flew with a pilot I held in high regard because of his experience and history in aviation. Because he was the PIC, I left him to take care of anything that needed to be taken care of - route, weather, filing, and so on - unless I was specifically asked to. After climbing through some clouds to get to our cruise altitude, I figured I could resume my visual flying, only to realize I had quite the frosty view out the front. I've flown with others with a lot more experience, but with some sort of glaring deficiency. That's not to say that it's a show stopper where something is a serious safety issue, but it does go along with the point that not everyone paid behaves appropriately and safely. It's one criticism I have of this industry and more specifically the simmers: pilots are not sky gods - we are fallible. Look at the accident statistics for pilot error. We should not be put up on a pedestal, immune from criticism. If you're a simmer or don't otherwise have similar experience, then avoid soapboxing small stuff, and avoid assuming you know enough to criticize in all cases. If you're in the peanut gallery, don't hound people for not abiding by that. If you feel like commenting, make sure to attack the incorrect issue instead of the person, and cede credit where it is due. Criticize, but be careful with it. If you are not careful and come off overly accusatory, then do not be surprised if the long guns come out.

 

This was actually a pretty simple discussion that could've remained civil.

I, personally, find the initial post to be pretty nit picky,

 

Yeah, I'm guilty of that, I'm sorry

 

I still believe that's not the proper way to hold a yoke, but whatever.

 

Maybe the guy's finger happened to hurt and he didn't want to grab the horn for that reason, and I'm making a fuss over nothing...

pilots are not sky gods

 

Haha, your choice of words just made my day! :smile:

 

 

I still believe that's not the proper way to hold a yoke, but whatever.

 

With all that right/wrong/proper/improper terminology aside, I find it interesting that the FCTM specifies a gripping pattern for the reverse thrust levers (page 6.37), but apparently not for the yoke. Unless you take the picture on page 1.50.17 of the FCOMv2 as a vague reference.

 

 

but apparently not for the yoke

 

I thought they don't show you that because it's obvious... A control that's ergonomically designed to best fit the pilots hands in a very certain way, yet people decide to put their hands on strange places anyway. Apparently it's not so obvious.

 

 

 

Jaime does have a point that not all pilots are exemplary

 

Thanks for giving me credit for that Kyle,

Love reading flight critiques from type-rated simmers!

Love reading flight critiques from type-rated simmers!

Seriously. I find it almost laughable that people who have probably never stepped in a 777 cockpit (or even a sim), are trying to point out things the crew is doing wrong. Like, yeah, I get it, you don't need to have an ATP to say "Hey he probably shouldn't be doing that", but on the flip side, we no nothing of the situation on the flight deck.

 

Amusingly, I always notice that non-pilot simmers (that is to say, simmers who don't hold a license of any kind) on VATSIM are always very strict and uptight about certain things that in the real world is just not that big of a deal.

 

 

I just find it odd for people with zero experience in doing something criticizing someone who does it professionally.

 

Wouldn't you question your doctor if the prescribed treatment had no effect? Or your car mechanic if you thought he didn't fix your car properly? Because I certainly would, even though I have zero experience in either field. :smile: Professionals are not infallible, after all. I have on numerous occasions brought up questions on why something was done in a certain, unexpected way; not so much as a criticism but in order to get a better understanding of things myself.

I think we as (hardcore) flight simmers have to be careful not to draw conclusions too quicky, as the only resource most of us have is textbook examples - and we're all quite aware the world doesn't work this way. 

Wouldn't you question your doctor if the prescribed treatment had no effect? Or your car mechanic if you thought he didn't fix your car properly? Because I certainly would, even though I have zero experience in either field. :smile: Professionals are not infallible, after all. I have on numerous occasions brought up questions on why something was done in a certain, unexpected way; not so much as a criticism but in order to get a better understanding of things myself.

I think we as (hardcore) flight simmers have to be careful not to draw conclusions too quicky, as the only resource most of us have is textbook examples - and we're all quite aware the world doesn't work this way. 

No I wouldn't, but I would find it odd to criticize my surgeon on how he holds his scalpel. It is one thing if he cannot perform what needs to be done, but another to see someone doing it different than you would and call it wrong.

No I wouldn't, but I would find it odd to criticize my surgeon on how he holds his scalpel

 

How  would  you know  is  the  question

How  would  you know  is  the  question

 

Likewise with this thread. How would the OP, who is not a 777 pilot, know what the best way to hold the 777 yoke is? Sure you can use common sense, doesn't mean other ways are wrong.

How would you know is the question

Likewise with this thread.

 

Chris  what I was  referring  to  my comment  is  that  if  your  having  surgery   and  the  surgeon is  using  the scalpel  usually  your  asleep  and  wouldn't  know  how  the  surgeon is using  it

The F/O is fine. You don't ham-fist a jet let alone a C172. In my CFI days, I always taught my students to handle the yoke with just their fingertips, maybe their index finger and thumb if the bumps became severe - gentle and precise control - no ham-fisting, and above all else be comfortable and relaxed.

 

Most jerky control movements are the result of the input of pilots hanging on the yoke like a chimp in a tree. There is just no need. This is especially true in the jets I've flown. No need to grip the yoke like a vice. I taught the above along with the 2/2/20 concept I learned (2 degrees airspeed, 2 degrees heading, and 20 feet of altitude up/down) and while I cannot say I've never had a student bust a check ride, I can say very few did. The local DPEs always knew my students were taught well.