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jmdriskell

KSEA ILS Approach Problems

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 I was just trying to fly an ILS approach to KSEA runway 16C with the 777 but I could not activate LOC or APP for some reason. The FMC shows the correct ILS frequency.   The ILS approach to 16L works fine with the same aircraft.  I have Taxi2Gate KSEA installed. Previously, the center runway didn't show but this situation was corrected a couple of months ago. I checked the KSEA-AF.bgl and it shows the correct info for runway 16C/34C but I don't understand why the 777 won't capture the LOC and APP in 16C.  Any ideas?

Thanks,

Jim Driskell

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I was just trying to fly an ILS approach to KSEA runway 16C with the 777 but I could not activate LOC or APP for some reason. The FMC shows the correct ILS frequency. The ILS approach to 16L works fine with the same aircraft. I have Taxi2Gate KSEA installed. Previously, the center runway didn't show but this situation was corrected a couple of months ago. I checked the KSEA-AF.bgl and it shows the correct info for runway 16C/34C but I don't understand why the 777 won't capture the LOC and APP in 16C. Any ideas?

 

Hi, Jim,

 

Most likely, there is a discrepancy in frequencies.  Take a look in the FSX>World>Map View and see what frequency is showing for KSEA runway 16C (and the others while you're at it).  The bgl you checked perhaps is being overridden by another AFCAD-type file.

 

As you may know, when FSX was released KSEA didn't have a center runway, but only two runways, left and right.  I am not familiar with Taxi2Gate KSEA -- does it install an AFCAD-type file that adds the third runway to the west and renames the former western-most runway to Center in both directions?  Are you sure KSEA-AF.bgl is the AFCAD/Airport file it installs? Also, note that 16L would have been in the original install with the same name (and probably the same frequency), but 16C would not.

 

If you have an older Airac installed in the 777 their might be a discrepancy, but I think it is more likely that an airport scenery file has the wrong frequency.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Mike

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T2G KSEA does have all three current runways, I use it often but never 16C.  KSEA almost always uses 16R for arrivals and so have I.  Make sure there's no other AFCADs besides the T2G.  Mike is spot on with using the Map to verify the ILS freqs present in your current scenery configuration.

 

Afterthought:  If you have Orbx NA PNW region, be sure to review the compatibility notes in their forum.

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Thanks Dan and Mike for the input.  I decided to test a bunch of theories about the missing KSEA center runway ILS system.  First, I removed the T2G KSEA package and restored ORBX NA PNW to its original configuration.  I made sure that I don't have an additional KSEA AFCADs anywhere in the system.  Once done, I checked the map for KSEA and it clearly shows the ILS for the center runway.  So I flew the PMDG 777 from KMWH (Grant County/Larson AFB (for those of us who remember)) to KSEA via the GLASR NINE Arrival using PEA as a transition for the KSEA 16C ILS.  No Joy!!  I modified the approach to the 16R ILS, captured the glide slope and landed without incident.   I then flew my DC-3 from KPAE to KSEA attempting the 16C ILS approach.  No signal!!  The 16R ILS works.

 

I don't know if the problem is somewhere within the ORBX NA PNW or elsewhere within my FSX system.  The ORBX NA PNW AFCAD for KSEA does show the ILS and Glideslope for the center runway, but I don't seem to be able to get it to work.  I'm going to post this in the ORBX forum but would appreciate any suggestions and ideas that might correct the missing center ILS and localizer problem.

 

Thanks,

 

Jim Driskell

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I have landed at all six runways at KSEA using the ILS signals. Never had a problem with FSX default, ORBX, or Taxi2Gate. Using ORBX 34L with LAND3 the ILS GS resulted in a touchdown about half way down the runway. This consistently happened using the CS 752/763 and the PMDG NGX. I never landed the T7 at KSEA. 

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So I've tried to check everything I could think of, eliminating ORBX and T2G KSEA.  I installed the AIG-KSEA Afcad but to no avail.  The map shows the center runway freq as 111.7.  ADE shows that every afcad I've tried does have the center runway correct.  Can someone tell me how the sim aircraft grabs the freq for an ILS approach.  What file does it read.  Maybe I've stomped on something else that I haven't found, but this problem is driving me nuts.  The center runway should work!  I had no problems when I installed Flightbeam's KIAD setup.

 

Any ideas will be appreciated.

 

Jim Driskell

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So I've tried to check everything I could think of, eliminating ORBX and T2G KSEA. I installed the AIG-KSEA Afcad but to no avail. The map shows the center runway freq as 111.7. ADE shows that every afcad I've tried does have the center runway correct. Can someone tell me how the sim aircraft grabs the freq for an ILS approach. What file does it read. Maybe I've stomped on something else that I haven't found, but this problem is driving me nuts. The center runway should work! I had no problems when I installed Flightbeam's KIAD setup.

 

Hi, Jim,

 

I'm not sure if this is only happening with the PMDG 777.  But the easiest thing to try is this: in FSX/PMDG/NavData delete ARPT_RWY.dat (or move it to another folder to be on the safe side).  It will rebuild the next time you load a PMDG 777.  It is NOT part of the Airac data.  Deleting/allowing this file to rebuild won't harm anything.  This file serves as a cache for the 777 FMC and is not used by the NGX even though it is in a shared navdata folder.  I don't recall seeing your particular issue from this file, but there are many reports of other strange missing runway issues that rebuilding this file fixes.

 

If the above doesn't work, and you have checked in the 777 NAV/RAD page on the CDU that the correct frequency is being tuned (or you are tuning it manually), the next step would be to try another aircraft with ILS such as a default Cessna.

 

Be sure to do only one thing at a time: don't install or remove an AFCAD at the same time.

 

Mike

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Thanks for the suggestion, I'll try it.  But I think my problem may be bigger.  I did fly the approach to 16C with a DC-3, no joy.  Parking the C-172 on 16C doesn't bring up the ILS but I can dial in 16R or 16L.  I may have to go back to the drawing board.

 

Jim

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Thanks for the suggestion, I'll try it. But I think my problem may be bigger. I did fly the approach to 16C with a DC-3, no joy. Parking the C-172 on 16C doesn't bring up the ILS but I can dial in 16R or 16L. I may have to go back to the drawing board.

 

Hi, Jim,

 

Actually, I think you've pretty much eliminated the 777 or any particular aircraft.

 

I once had a problem with an airport (JFK) with a runway that used the same ILS frequency at opposite ends of the runway.  The plane would attempt to fly the ILS to the wrong side - left when  it should have gone right, etc..  It was due to having two addon AFCADs installed by mistake.

 

Since all three KSEA runways use the same frequency at opposite ends, that may have something to do with the problem.

 

One question is, for 16C, do you see no ILS at all or do you receive it, but the localizer is indicating the wrong direction?  If it is, that would be a clue.

 

Another suggestion: remove all known KSEA addon AFCADs and see if 1) the original 34L/16R, which became the new Center runway, now works.  Also 2) see how many runways are showing up visually and in the FSX map view.  If the three runways are showing up either visually or or on the map, you know there is still a scenery file holding airport information somewhere that is gumming things up. 

 

If everything looks good, put back only ONE AFCAD -- there generally shouldn't be more than one addon AFCAD-type file ever.

 

Mike

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Well, here's the latest version of my saga looking for ILS/DME on KSEA 16C & 34C. 

 

Background: I have the following installed;  FSGenesis NA Terrain For FSX - US west, FSGenesis NA Terrain Mesh for FSX - West Coast and Ultimate Terrain X-USA.

 

I uninstalled T2Gate - KSEA and restored ORBX NA PNW to its original configuration.  Then I disabled ORBX.  I searched FSX for any KSEA AFCADs but only found the default two runway version.  I had previously run ILSInspector so I reversed the two stock files.

 

Then I parked the C-172 on both KSEA 16C and 34C and tuned Nav1 to 111.70.  Both ILS/DME worked.  The I activated the other stock AFCAD bgl file that was the result of running ILSInspector.  The ILS/DME works for both locations.

 

The I activated ORBX.  34C works but 16C doesn't.  I checked all the AFCADS with Airport Design Editor.  The ORBX AFCAD for KSEA looks good but I did notice a difference between it and the stock old AFCAD.  The original old AFCAD does not have the back course checked but the ORBX one does.  Could this be the problem?  I'll un-check the back course box and try it, but others indicate that they don't have a problem woth the ORBX install.

 

The map shows either two or three runways correctly depending on my configuration.

 

Maybe I'll follow Dan Downs' suggestion and only land on 16R or 34L :o).  But something not working drives me nuts and 16C/34C should work!

 

Thanks in advance for any help in solving this problem.

 

Jim Driskell

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I don't know if this will help or not. You will need to think it thru. In 2010 I installed ORBX Pacific NW over default FSX. In 2015 I installed Taxi2Gate KSEA plus the compatibility patch. I never got to check any frequencies since the airport was useless. Terrain spikes all over the place and three level to the airport. In my case, the two Taxi2Gate installers overwrote some of ORBX Pacific NW installation. I uninstalled Taxi2Gate KSEA, the compatibility patch, and ORBX Pacific NW so that only the FSX default airport remained. I then installed Taxi2Gate KSEA, compatibility patch, and ORBX plus the updates since 2010. I disabled KSEA terrain in the FSX scenery library.

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I had problem with the first time I installed T2G KSEA on top of Orbx PNW too, and did some customization to get it to work. However, when I went to a new build I installed Pilots mesh, Orbx Global, Vector and PNW and then T2G KSEA.  Then i followed their compatibility instructions to the "T" here:  http://www.orbxsystems.com/forum/topic/105160-orbx-pnw-and-taxi2gate-ksea-airport-compatibility-guide/

 

It's working very well.  I have no problem with ILS16C. There are also compatibility issues with FSGenesis and UTX that are also covered in their forum, but these shouldn't have anything to do with navaids.

 

You may have to join the forum to get access to the support section.

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The I activated ORBX. 34C works but 16C doesn't. I checked all the AFCADS with Airport Design Editor. The ORBX AFCAD for KSEA looks good but I did notice a difference between it and the stock old AFCAD. The original old AFCAD does not have the back course checked but the ORBX one does. Could this be the problem? I'll un-check the back course box and try it, but others indicate that they don't have a problem woth the ORBX install.

 

Hi, Jim,

 

I would definitely try unchecking the backcourse option for 34C and 16C (whichever one is checked) after backing up the unmodified file.  (The easiest way to back up the file is to copy it in the same folder and rename the file extension to something other than "bgl".) I can't see why it should be checked when you have full ILS for each end of the runway. Having it checked would further complicate matters when  they both use the same frequency.

 

Mike

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Michael & Dan,

 

Thanks for the input.  I think the sequence  of the install is key to a successful conclusion.  I'm also beginning to think that I need to wipe my SSD and start with a new FSX install.  I only recently started adding large scale add-ons like ORBX and T2G KSEA.  Up to this point, my system was quite solid so maybe these add-ons messed up enough of the underlying FSX so it may be impossible to correct.  I've only found the one problem with KSEA but there may be more that I haven't found yet.  

 

I did follow the ORBX compatibility guide when I installed T2G KSEA but I noticed spikes and other terrain problems after the install.  And as I mentioned initially early on, the KSEA AFCAD that T2G KSEA contained didn't work correctly because it only offered (at least in my system) two runways.  T2G gave me an updated  AFCAD which seemed to work until I discovered the lack of ILS/DME for the center runways.  T2G also combined the patch into the installer so it's not necessary to do a two step install now.

 

I also tryed disabling ORBX and installing a  KSEA AFCAD from AIG to check the ILS/DME on the center runways but I got so many spikes that I dropped this idea.

 

I guess it's back to the drawing board.

 

Jim Driskell

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I just had a look at my AFCAD from T2G for KSEA using Airport Design Editor.  The ILS16C is the stock navaid for the stock runway 16R renamed in its new incarnation.  Stock navaids cannot be turned off, they can only be relocated to appear no longer there. Of course ILS16R is an addon for the new runway.  The BC option is usually not relevant depending on where the aircraft is in relationship to runway center, but I usually kill it when I am tweaking an ILS.  I have no explanation for the disappearance of ILS16C.

 

I wonder why you experienced spiking and scenery problems.  Are you using a video card that supports DirectX 11?

 

Disabling Orbx is not a trivial thing to do, I tried once but discovered that orbx has pretty much replace all existing landclasses and terrain textures and then there are those airport elevation correction stubs using Vector,  so it's not as easy as just turning off an Orbx entry in the scenery configuration. Basically, I think the only way to turn it off is to remove it and restore original stuff.

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Hi Mike,

 

Deleting the backcourse check didn't have any effect.  Nuts!

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Deleting the backcourse check didn't have any effect. Nuts!

 

Sorry to hear that, Jim.  I was hoping that would fix the problem.

 

Mike

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The latest version of this mess is:  Got rid of both ORBX and T2G KSEA.  KSEA 16C and 34C ILS/DME both work.  Installed T2G KSEA.  ILS/DME works for both 34C and 16C.  Installed ORBX FTX PNW and made the necessary modifications for T2G KSEA.  ORBX is above T2G KSEA.  ILS/DME still works for both 34C and 16C but the terrain around the runway now has bumps and holes.  The sharp runway texture seen in T2G KSEA before ORBX was installed has flattened out.

 

Terrain problems make me conclude that ORBX FTX and T2G KSEA are not compatible on my machine.  I'm not sure which one I wall dump but I'm very dis-satisfied with how they work together.  Has anyone had a different experience?

 

Maybe it's time to start over!

 

Thanks,

 

Jim Driskell

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but the terrain around the runway now has bumps and holes

 

Installed the latest orbx libs  or  if  you have  got vectors  run  the airport  correction tool  since  if  you add any airport or  addons  you have to run this  tool  which will fix any conflicts  between  any addon and  orbx  addons

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T2G Seattle and FTX PNW work fantastic for me and many others. Have you followed the compatibility thread listed on the ORBX forums?

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Do you have any of the Ultimate Terrain products installed?  I thought I followed the ORBX modifications closely but I'm beginning to think my whole FSX is junk.  Maybe I'll rebuild it and see what happens.

 

Jim Driskell

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Do you have any of the Ultimate Terrain products installed?

Jim

I have UT-USA, GEX-NA, Scenery Tech-NA and FSGenesis installed for the Seattle area plus ORBX PNW and KSEA  Taxi2Gate. At the time I was trying to get the airport to work, I spent more time on  the I-fly forum getting ideas that didn't work and one that finally did than I did on the ORBX forums. Maybe ORBX has more info now than was available in the late summer of 2015.

 

I don't have a link to I-fly anymore. I believe I got to it thru the Taxi2Gate home page by click on Forum. It was a bear to use. I never was able to register. I could only read the posts.

 

Edit - I see you have already post in I fly. So never mind the second paragraph.

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Do you have any of the Ultimate Terrain products installed?

 I have UTX USA, Canada and Europe installed underneath my FTX regions. I didn't have to modify anything from UTX to get Seattle working well. Have you by any chance tried the newest installer for T2G Seattle? I believe it has some updates in it for FTX PNW compatibility.

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