Skywolf

VR is the thing you want - Monitors is so last century

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Hey all,

 

It has been a very long time since I have posted anything on Avsim.  This was due to me focusing on my work goals etc.  Now, certain time has been freed up and I can allocate limited time to experience simming again).

 

Rift Changes everything

 

You all need to jump on the VR bandwagon.  Once you go inside the airplane, any monitor usage for simming or any game is just plane lame.  And I have 6 4K monitors for work use.  Monitors are great for work but everything else VR is the Future and the Future is here.

 

My first experience with getting the Raptor with default scenery - I was screaming profanities left and right $%$^, holy #%#%, F#%#, D#%#%, mot#%#%#%, etc - It was Surreal Experience.  I did same for Elite: Dangerous when I am in space and I get the entire cabin to dazzle myself in.  It is a trip.  My wife even recorded my experience - she totally said that I was like a kid who sat in a cockpit or saw an airplane in person for the first time.  The sense of amazement is beyond words here.

 

But simming is fun - the experience is nothing short of Magic.

 

I feel like a bzillionaire - I own So many Planes (all those free ones count too), I can experience all of them in VR.  How cool is that.  Even the default planes were epic. 

 

Once you experience VR, you will Never go into Monitor Simming.  I don't even know how I will share screenshots now.  All I care about is VR Cockpit Quality now, I don't care about liveries, or external models period (unless in ground to look at them birds) - You want to be in cockpit period.  It is Amazing.

 

A2A birds were are just amazing plain and simple.  I finally got to sit inside a Cessna 182 that I have been waiting for a while to experience it.  I will have to reinstall ole carenado Mooney to relive my real life Mooney experience - just for kicks.

 

Addons.

 

I have only installed limited sceneries in P3D 3.3.5 as I am sure I am going to whack my P3D install tweaking with settings - Flyinside-FSX P3D versionOrbx Global, Vector, OpenLC NA, Pilot FTX Mesh and Mytraffic 6a.  Airplanes - A2A Commanche (180 and 250), Cessna 182, PMDG 777 and Majestic Q400 Pro and Rex Texture Direct with Soft Clouds and ASN and AS16 Trial.

 

SLI doesn't work right with Flyinside-P3D and this reduces my FPS big time.  I really wanted SLI to work but all of this cutting edge tech so I am just grateful for everything which works now.

 

The main key is to have FPS near 90 - and since Sim can only reach those levels with a very low settings and very basic plane and work around that VR headsets like Oculus use have Async Time Warp (Google it).  So technically you want FPS Like 90/90 or 60/90  - The first second number 90 is key here (never lets this number drop).  On Certain planes I get 50/90 which is awesome especially with scenery turned up.  Read more about it here - http://wiki.flyinside-fsx.com/index.php/Graphics_Settings_and_Performance  And if you drop this number below 90 sooner or later you will Throw up/Nausea etc - I haven't thrown up b/c Nausea comes first.  This is no joke, you have to watch your FPS here.  I can make practical joke with people here but that is for another story and another post.

 

Clouds - AS16 Trial is amazing with Soft clouds.  I will get it once there is a sale on the upgrade price .  I already bought OpenLC NA and Flyinside-FSX P3D for now.  ASN looks great too but AS16 is at a different level.

 

Majestic Q400 Is the number 1 complex airplane in VR.  I don't know how they managed to make the VC looks so good.  Monitor viewing doesn't do justice - in VR you get see even the bolt nuts pop up.  This is the best including with FPS.  The Hud in Pro is awesome too which reminds me the hud in the raptor is super sweet.

 

A2A planes win here for amazing fps and realism.  All planes look good in VC (Must have A2A for VR).  I am sure Carenado is good (I will try the default Carenado in P3D later today).

 

PMDG 777 well I have love and hate relationship with this bird.  I have hardly used ever since the P3D version came out.  It is a very VAS heavy bird and then I needed SLI in P3Dv3 to work to get good FPS inside it.  In VR it looks awesome but with one 980 GTX it has massive FPS issues.  The cockpit looks awesome but it is not like Magestic Q400 where almost everything is modelled.  There are areas where PMDG used just image textures vs 3D model textures.  I know it is done to save VAS etc and other optimizations.  You don't really see this in a monitor view but in VR you are inside the Cockpit and now you see much more detail.  Don't get me wrong it is awesome it is just that it is very hard to maintain good 30/90 FPS on default airports - sure it works well in some areas etc.  I am still tweaking with the settings here.  Obviously I can't enjoy this over full FTX regions like Cali and PNW though Majestic Q400 should work fine.  But for now Open LC NA for keeping the sim light weight.  I know we have lot of PMDG 777 ###### here so please do not go bashing me on this thread (lets keep it civil).  I wish I had 737 NGX P3D version and I own FSX version b/c i bet the performance in the sim will be much better with 737.  I already love the 737 cockpit vs 777.  Can someone do a mod for VC to change the colors.  Why did Boeing do brown for 777?.  Where as 737 looks like a jet fighter cockpit and looks so cool (I am digressing here). 

 

Sense of flying 777 is unlike other - I turns like a huge Bus.  It is a huge bus in the plane and you get to feel the sense of it when you are in VC.  You do not get that when you are in monitor because in the monitor you are witnessing a huge plane through a small screen.  In VR you are inside it. 

 

Expectations - VR requires cutting edge tech from all areas.  Even with the current tech the graphics won't be super sharp - they are very good for A2A in Flyinside 4K resolution though Majestic needs 2K res for Flyinside.  This is not the same as what you see in the monitor.  Anti-Aliasing is an issue.  It is not super blurry but there is blur.  Rift hardware isn't using Retina style lenses - if they did that then graphic cards even Titan X won't be able to push that much fps on 2 screens for the eye.  It will be few years till that can happen.  Best thing is you can lower your LOD when you see outside and save VAS in the size.  Traffic is amazing but LM needs to make road traffic run on graphic cards - that way we can all go push traffic to 100 and enjoy massively filled roads when approaching landing and low altitudes.  Looks awesome with a setting of 10 in the sim

 

Current hardware is pushed to its limit with VR but damn it is exciting to experience it even at this current Beta/Alpha Stages.

 

People with glasses - it is better if you have contacts on.  You can wear glasses with Rift but you have to put it on carefully, I am always worried about scratching the VR lens so I wear it without it (My prescription is quite low, I can do without it). 

 

Before buying the Rift please go to Best Buy and do a Demo and see if you can handle it visually.  For some people it will cause headaches (go to a optomertist and get your eyes checked out - you could need a new prescription) and then try the demo again to see if it helps.  I only get nausea when the Async time warp FPS drops below 85.  This is not same has in game FPS - see above

 

For all the developers now - I will not buy anything unless it looks good in VR.  Why buy something if it is inefficiently coded.  VR demands efficiency at this stage.  I suggest everyone get the rift as pretty much everyone who here uses P3Dv3 has a high end system to handle the Rift's USB3 and Nvidia 970+ video cards.  970 is Minimum card supported.

 

Even if you love complex airliners fly the Majestic Q400 in VR or any other airplane - the experience is out of this world and I can guarantee that you will never go back to the monitors (There goes my multi screen setups).

 

Orbx openLC NA is amazing - the only thing which sucks in P3D is those bridges are too high and giant cell phone towers everywhere.  I will bug LM about this.

 

VR is here and you all Need it.

 

PS - Other VR experiences are awesome especially 180/360 3D videos - 3D is key. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Isn't it difficult to manipulate cockpit items? I fly online for the most part so that would be an issue

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Isn't it difficult to manipulate cockpit items? I fly online for the most part so that would be an issue

 

It isn't that difficult but Flyinside is being actively developed and I am sure LM is going to add more stuff to it.  You can not beat the experience of being inside the bird.  The pop ups of panel do happen and I can click on them if I need to.  Another feature I use in Elite: Dangerous which had ten times of unique controls is Voiceattack.  That is pure magic inside it.  I am sure I can set some major commands with Voiceattack for P3d and all will be well.  but I can use my mouse which is next to my joystick when I am in VR.

 

You can import windows from desktop in Flyinside-fsx/p3d - I haven't tried it yet.  So far I am having zero problems, sure the graphics are not super sharp but that is tech hardware limited - not a show stopper at all.

 

With VR you will question everything - trust me we all live in the Matrix

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Indeed VR is beyond amazing!

I had the opportunity to try my friends DCS setup with the latest Oculus Rift headset.

It's hard to describe just how immersive the experience really is- it does feel like your really sitting in a cockpit and can reach out and touch anything.

The only drawback at this time is resolution. The image projected appears like your looking through a sheer nylon stocking.

When they get the resolution crisp and clear, I'm all in.


Isn't it difficult to manipulate cockpit items? I fly online for the most part so that would be an issue

It can be Ryan. The setup I tried had the HOTAS Warthog (which is superb btw) which made manipulating general controls easy, throttle, flaps, gear etc easy by feel.

My friend was helping doing the more detailed commands so I didn't have to remove the goggles.

I imagine VR gloves of some sort are going to have to implemented at some point so you can reach out and tune radios, etc.

As it is now though you will find yourself reaching out and trying to touch things lol- it's a very cool deal!

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Leap motion has the Hand Controls - where one twist knobs and what not.  I will probably get that next month or two.

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For me the biggest problem is the still not optimal resolution of the displays and the visible pixels. Maybe the next generation VR Lenses will improve that and you can really enjoy it. For GA and looking around it is quite nice however

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For me the biggest problem is the still not optimal resolution of the displays and the visible pixels. Maybe the next generation VR Lenses will improve that and you can really enjoy it. For GA and looking around it is quite nice however

 

 

Helicopters really shine in VR!

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I used the DK2 Rift for a while ,but the new one is LIGHT YEARS better! I'm still working on implimenting hte Leap motion kit, but Dan has said there is amajor upgrade coming in the next few weeks to really make the Leap motion work far better- to the point of being able to work the on screen yolk with a fist and not bother with actual controls at all! 

 

I'll stick to my physical setup, the Warthog is ace for DCS in paerticular and the Saitek bundle and 737 pop on ends for the saitek throttles are just fine for flying the 737.

 

Why do I bother with the 737? Dunno. I fly the damn things for real!

 

Oculus and HTC Vive are the way forward. Flyinside is maturing fast. My only hope is the Dovetail Sim will be portable easily and all we have and more wil lcome to us in full on multi core 64bit goodness soon.

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It is easy to be charmed/blown away by the initial experiences of VR. It is amazing. Sadly though for flighsimming my experience was limited to sitting on the flight deck (in itself an amazing experince) and doing 1 brief flight before being too ill to continue. That was my experience with the DK2.

 

I don't think flightsim is  ready for VR yet(or the other way around) . 90 fps is just not achievable on a consistent basis let alone manipulation of controls and buttons in a manner which seems plausible and realistic. Also resolution, although better than the DK2, is still not ideal for serious flightsimming. x1440 may get us there.

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I'm just waiting for the prices to come down to the ~$200-300 range! Might be a few years still, but I think I can wait!

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I'm just waiting for the prices to come down to the ~$200-300 range! Might be a few years still, but I think I can wait!

 

OSVR has it for $300 same resolution as Rift just haven't played with it.  Also do not know how flyinside-p3d will work with it.  It should technically work but remember everything is so new and we are many years away from tech maturation. 

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Skywolf, do you have Pro ATC/X?  I have a CV1 with FI, but I rarely use it as it doesn't work reliably with PATC - there's something with the way PATC interacts that means that when I've made a couple of radio calls, the number keys stop responding - except 3, that always seems to work, which is weird!  And it doesn't matter what I map the keys to either, it generally works the first time I press a key, but after that it's pretty hit and miss and generally it stops working within a few key presses.

 

I've never managed to find anyone else that had PATC and a Rift with FlyInside to see if the issue was common or just me...

 

I posted on the FI message boards.  The Dev was very responsive but unable to sort the issue.  I'll continue to keep my eye on it though.

 

Graham

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Skywolf, do you have Pro ATC/X?  I have a CV1 with FI, but I rarely use it as it doesn't work reliably with PATC - there's something with the way PATC interacts that means that when I've made a couple of radio calls, the number keys stop responding - except 3, that always seems to work, which is weird!  And it doesn't matter what I map the keys to either, it generally works the first time I press a key, but after that it's pretty hit and miss and generally it stops working within a few key presses.

 

I've never managed to find anyone else that had PATC and a Rift with FlyInside to see if the issue was common or just me...

 

I posted on the FI message boards.  The Dev was very responsive but unable to sort the issue.  I'll continue to keep my eye on it though.

 

Graham

 

Hey Graham,

 

No, I don't have Pro ATC/X.  I want to use these addons but I keep reading confusing posts.  Down the road I am going to do PilotEdge.  Right now liveatc.net sounds in the airplane + VR - feels so freaking cool.

 

Try VoiceAttack and map your keys etc.  There is a trial for VoiceAttack see if it helps.  I mean it does out of this world job like talking to ship's AI in Elite: Dangerous (with VoicePack)

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I have VA for use with Elite.  I don't have any problems with controlling the plane - I generally fly the 737 NGX, it's just that I can't use the ATC which is kind of essential in a tube liner!

 

I'll try it again as there's a new version of PATC imminent, and as FI matures maybe it'll work.

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Would you happen to know the pros and cons with the OSVR against the Rift or Vive? Obviously the price is a huge plus for the OSVR, so I'm assuming its probably lacking a few things compared to the others

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The image projected appears like your looking through a sheer nylon stocking.

 

See, that makes it sound kind of ugly right there.  Is that just in FS or all VR stuff?!

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It is mostly for FS stuff, but you can get the settings real good.

 

You need to try the demos at Best Buy. 

 

This is nothing like DK2

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So Skywolf what you are saying can be summarised as this: the immersion the Rift brings by far exceeds the loss in eye candy.

 

Good summary?

 

Can you switch into the Avatar and see the world from the Avatar's point of view in the Rift?

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See, that makes it sound kind of ugly right there.  Is that just in FS or all VR stuff?!

This is still for all VR Stuff.  While the Rift is slightly better than all the other avialable headsets if you add the occulous touch controllers (you need some kind of those controllers), the price is even higher compared to the Vive.

 

All first generation VR still suffers from a simple fact that the resolution in the glasses is not high enough.  Mind you, it is still worlds better than the first 3D phase in the 90s and for tech demos and "wow" effects it is great. But once the novelity wears of you realize that this is barely the beginning first steps of this technology. 

 

Currently only buy into VR if you really dont care about money, are a tech nerd or like new things to try out. The technology advances at the moment are so big that once the next generation comes out, the last one will be immediately obsolete.  When the DK2 came out, it was so vastly superior, that everybody developed for that and you had to buy the new headset. Same happend with the CV1.  When the second generation will appear in the next years it will have a way higher resolution than now and improve the shortcommings of today.

 

So if you have 800-1000$ spare and don't care for the money, go for it. Otherwise wait until the early adaptors financed the development of the real consumer product :D

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So Skywolf what you are saying can be summarised as this: the immersion the Rift brings by far exceeds the loss in eye candy.

 

Good summary?

 

Can you switch into the Avatar and see the world from the Avatar's point of view in the Rift?

 

 

For me the immersion in the Rift far exceeds the loss in eye candy.  I am using AS16+ASCA and that alone makes the clouds super real - far better than ASN and Rex Soft clouds.  Performance is much higher with ASCA.

 

Avatar mode isn't working right for me properly or it could be that I haven't set my controls right for it - Tried for first time in Rift yesterday for about a minute.

 

Other games the graphics is amazing - it just that flightsim software as well know it is not super optimized.  P3Dv3 helps but Flyinside p3d does create additional stress on the gpu as it is a layer between P3Dv3.  I hope LM buys out Flyinside P3D or help the Flyinside P3D to reduce additional overheard.  All the flightsim software for Rift is beta stage.  There are bugs for sure (one has to expect it) but the immersion is what you are paying for.  The ability to be inside the airplane is one of a kind experience.

 

On monitors one sees the world it feels super small but in VR - I alone could spends hours around the airport as the world seems real scale and sense of massiveness is unreal.  I am sitting in my room yet in VR I am above the clouds.

 

 

This is still for all VR Stuff.  While the Rift is slightly better than all the other avialable headsets if you add the occulous touch controllers (you need some kind of those controllers), the price is even higher compared to the Vive.

 

All first generation VR still suffers from a simple fact that the resolution in the glasses is not high enough.  Mind you, it is still worlds better than the first 3D phase in the 90s and for tech demos and "wow" effects it is great. But once the novelity wears of you realize that this is barely the beginning first steps of this technology. 

 

Currently only buy into VR if you really dont care about money, are a tech nerd or like new things to try out. The technology advances at the moment are so big that once the next generation comes out, the last one will be immediately obsolete.  When the DK2 came out, it was so vastly superior, that everybody developed for that and you had to buy the new headset. Same happend with the CV1.  When the second generation will appear in the next years it will have a way higher resolution than now and improve the shortcommings of today.

 

So if you have 800-1000$ spare and don't care for the money, go for it. Otherwise wait until the early adaptors financed the development of the real consumer product :D

 

 

It is expensive but honestly - I didn't even sim whole of last year and I am sitting on expensive pc eqiupment for doing my work and my pc doesn't need 2 980s for work - just one AMD 6 eyefinity display port card 7750 will do the job 100% - but I had the hardware unused and before CV2 comes out and forces me to get new video cards - I factored I might as well use the current hardware that I have at my disposable right now.  I am skipping 1080 pascal current generation.  It is the generation which comes next will push VR even further.  CV1 requires 970 and I got 980 - that is good enough for me.

 

Now if you do A2A airplanes or GA flight (Later in the year, I will go RealAirSimulations birds) - you can push the graphics hard and the Sim is very responsive.

 

I still recommend that if you get a chance - try out the demo.  And if you decide to buy it - test it out and if it doesn't work you can indeed return it.  It also depends on how one sims. 

 

But the price to see VR cockpit for me is a dream come true in itself.

 

Space in Elite Dangerous is amazing.  That game is designed for VR, you have a body and maps super sweet with hotas joysticks.  Can't wait for virtual Bodies in VR.

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For many folks, like me, much of the flight sim bubble lies outside of what goes up on the (primary) monitor...for me that includes my yoke, throttle quad, kneepad, iPad with CDU, iPad with approach plates, and the side PC that runs weather, ATC, AI traffic management, and moving map.  So restricting myself to the view in a pair of VR goggles might be more immersive in one facet of the simming experience, but much less so elsewhere.  I need to see/use my hands, and I need access to all the other stuff I have that goes into the process.  So for me, a massive display system, e.g. one or more large 4K monitors, answers that mail better than anything I could do on goggles.

 

Perhaps for some kinds of flying--a fighter with HOTAS for example--it might make more sense.  But all the technical limitations associated with the current generation of VR goggles aside, I don't see how to bridge a strictly in-the-headset VR world with the other necessary elements of the physical environment I operate in.

 

Regards

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On monitors one sees the world it feels super small but in VR - I alone could spends hours around the airport as the world seems real scale and sense of massiveness is unreal.  I am sitting in my room yet in VR I am above the clouds.

 

Thanks Skywolf nicely put. Do try Avatar mode if you can. It is working really well in the latest P3D. It used to be bugged but is now a really useful way for interacting with the world and seeing your replays in 3rd person. You turn it on under general settings and then use a hot key to switch back and forth from pilot to avatar view. There are also a few keys for moving around. They are all listed in the control settings if you search for avatar. It would be a great feature to know if you can view the VR world in the Rift from the Avatar's perspective.

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I haven’t tried the Avatar in VR yet. Will do so and let everyone know.

 

I have had the Rift for a few months but didn’t bother trying with flight sim as some youtube guy said the tech won’t be ready for years.

 

Saw people on avsim talking bout Flyinside and gave it a crack last weekend. Holy smokes!

 

This changes everything. Even with the low resolution, the experience is indescribable. I cannot ever go back to monitor. Have tried Aerosoft airbus and PMDG 777 and they are both remarkable.

 

You cannot get any closer to the real thing than this. I can almost touch the buttons on the overhead! The cockpit dimensions are incredible. Looking out over the glairshield. Wow.

 

Landing is so different due to depth perception. I keep thinking i am coming in too high, cos the monitor just flattens things out.

 

Performance is great. Setting are high. But to be honest, i dont care much for sharp scenery anymore. Just being in the cockpit is good enough. Even on external views in flight, the experience is immense. Flying alongside a ginormous 777 on the edge of its wing! Can’t wait for the 747!

 

Even just sitting on the ramp is an experience. But yesterday i was in cruise on the 777 and was sitting looking out over the glairshield, a line of clouds ahead on the horizon and a thunderstorm below. Almost for the first time felt what a real pilot must feel when the are facing a long flight ahead and they simply stare outside as the time passes during their down time. Awesome!

 

The future for flightsim is so promising. In a year or two the resolution will improve and we will have flightsim nirvava.

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I haven’t tried the Avatar in VR yet. Will do so and let everyone know.

 

I have had the Rift for a few months but didn’t bother trying with flight sim as some youtube guy said the tech won’t be ready for years.

 

Saw people on avsim talking bout Flyinside and gave it a crack last weekend. Holy smokes!

 

This changes everything. Even with the low resolution, the experience is indescribable. I cannot ever go back to monitor. Have tried Aerosoft airbus and PMDG 777 and they are both remarkable.

 

You cannot get any closer to the real thing than this. I can almost touch the buttons on the overhead! The cockpit dimensions are incredible. Looking out over the glairshield. Wow.

 

Landing is so different due to depth perception. I keep thinking i am coming in too high, cos the monitor just flattens things out.

 

Performance is great. Setting are high. But to be honest, i dont care much for sharp scenery anymore. Just being in the cockpit is good enough. Even on external views in flight, the experience is immense. Flying alongside a ginormous 777 on the edge of its wing! Can’t wait for the 747!

 

Even just sitting on the ramp is an experience. But yesterday i was in cruise on the 777 and was sitting looking out over the glairshield, a line of clouds ahead on the horizon and a thunderstorm below. Almost for the first time felt what a real pilot must feel when the are facing a long flight ahead and they simply stare outside as the time passes during their down time. Awesome!

 

The future for flightsim is so promising. In a year or two the resolution will improve and we will have flightsim nirvava.

 

Excellent....Yep the immersion is out of this world.  Do please watch the Airplane documentary for free in the Jaunt Video App.

 

Get AS16+ASCA - I know it is expensive but OMG - the effect it creates is like the real sky and wind effects around the plane.  It is Magic in VR.

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I had an Oculus Rift CV1, but had to take it back because the resolution was too low and the visuals seemed too dark, although I am reconsidering trying it out again. I do have to say it is the most incredible experience you will ever have within a flight simulator. It cannot be described with words and there is no way to show the experience via video. It simply requires one to experience it. One question though for those who have VR, my biggest frustration is I could not get HDR to work and I do not believe it is supported. Can any of you good VR pilots see if you can get HDR to work. 

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