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Slick9

Question about KPSP runway...

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Afternoon ladies and gents,

 

I flew into KPSP this weekend w/ the 737NGX, the runway 31L-13R is listed @ 10,000 feet long.  As I approach the runway I notice it has a displaced threshhold (a very long one on 13R).  I adjusted my touchdown point so as to touch down on the runway markings on 13R, I was barely able to stop the aircraft before the markings on the other end of the runway, with full reverse thrust and autobrakes 3.   So looking at the shorter parallel runway 13L-31R, I estimate the length between the markings on 31L-13R is about 5100 feet.   

 

My question is this, is it legal for me to touch down on the displaced threshhold? Or do I have to land within the markings?

 

Thnx in advance!!
 

Richard Bansa

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My question is this, is it legal for me to touch down on the displaced threshhold? Or do I have to land within the markings?

 

I think you are still meant to land in the touchdown markings. But I think you can use the displaced area for take off.

 

More of a general aviation question than PMDG.

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On the airport diagram (Jepp 10-9A pages) you will find a value for the distance beyond threshold for the runway.  That is the distance available for landing.

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As mentioned above, the area before the threshold is only available for take-off -- when landing, you must not touch down before the threshold markings.

 

The usual reason is because of obstacles, terrain or noise issues on the approach path. By displacing the landing threshold down the runway, landing aircraft on a standard glidepath to this displaced touchdown point will be higher at any given point before that than they would have been if they were going to touch down at the very start of the asphalt.

 

Of course, obstacles in the approach path do not affect departures, and this is why it is possible to use all of the displaced area for the takeoff run.

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thanks a lot for your answers - that makes sense.  I gather from the responses here that had this been a real world situation where I overran the space within the markings, I would have argued that the runway length was stated as 10,000 feet, which was misleading.  I would then have been nailed for not being familiar with the Jeppeson (sp) diagram where the landing distance available is spelled out.

 

Richard Bansa

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I would then have been nailed for not being familiar with the Jeppeson (sp) diagram where the landing distance available is spelled out.

 

 

the airport charts are full of useful information. yeah you'd be in hot water in your 737 job for not looking them up first :)

 

another quick place to look is on the airnav site... the airport has listed what is called "declared distances" which gives the official lengths for the different sections.

 

KPSP 13R it is:

TORA:10000 TODA:10000 ASDA:9857 LDA:6857

 

LDA is 'landing distance available' 

TODA is 'takeoff distance available'

 

cheers

-andy crosby

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My question is this, is it legal for me to touch down on the displaced threshhold?

 

As mentioned: no.

 

I'm not aware of an specific regulation (note: the AIM is not regulatory in nature) addressing actions around displaced thresholds in specifics, however, in practice, the AIM definition is what to go by. The reasons for the displaced threshold are usually somehow safety-related (obstacles, etc.), though, so the lack of a reference to actions around displaced thresholds does not mean you couldn't be caught up by 91.13 (careless or reckless operation). Additionally, Advisory Circulars do refer to the portion before the threshold bar as unusable for landing (also not precisely regulatory, but provide guidance specific to the regs).

 

Additionally, there's this bit of info:

 

FAR 91.103:

Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight. This information must include -
(a) For a flight under IFR or a flight not in the vicinity of an airport, weather reports and forecasts, fuel requirements, alternatives available if the planned flight cannot be completed, and any known traffic delays of which the pilot in command has been advised by ATC;
(b) For any flight, runway lengths at airports of intended use, and the following takeoff and landing distance information:
(1) For civil aircraft for which an approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual containing takeoff and landing distance data is required, the takeoff and landing distance data contained therein; and
(2) For civil aircraft other than those specified in paragraph (b)(1) of this section, other reliable information appropriate to the aircraft, relating to aircraft performance under expected values of airport elevation and runway slope, aircraft gross weight, and wind and temperature.
 
Emphases mine.
 
Finding this information is pretty simple:
 
As the old adage in aviation goes:
"Never let an airplane take you somewhere you brain didn't get to five minutes earlier."
 
Nothing should be a surprise to you when flying a plane.

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KPSP has a real nice RNP approach, nice big arc with a roll out to final at about 3 nm.  I'm planning on adding the newly updated Orbx KPSP soon, it's not a favorite destination in August.

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Also keep in mind that there are displaced thresholds, and displaced thresholds. Some cannot be used even for takeoffs. In the FAA world, large yellow chevrons mean don't; white arrows on the centerline mean it's ok :-)

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American airports are well covered by liveatc.net, shameless plug I am just a fan, but when they have feeds for airports I like to listen in it gives you a good understanding of how the airport operates. From the departures turning to intercept the radial and then once above a certain altitude to clear obstacles the departure gives them a direct rather than fly the entire departure, to vectoring into the approach. I find that winds have to be very high for PSP to change runways, 31L is the preferred runway unless winds get very high on the opposite direction. http://www.liveatc.net/search/?icao=kpsp A good service to aviation and flight sim fans that can use more donations and volunteers to open new stations around the planet! - David Lee

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