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Hello,

since some time I am usually getting a message on my main panel NO AUTOLAND.

Recently landing on EGLL with NO AUTLAND, however, my landing was automatic and OK.

Is that something wrong I do ?

many thanks !

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Hi,

After typing No autoland in the search box of the forum (:rolleyes:) I found this:

 

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If Jan had his flaps in the wrong position, shouldn't he get a TOO LOW FLAPS aural?

 

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5 hours ago, Qavion2 said:

If Jan had his flaps in the wrong position, shouldn't he get a TOO LOW FLAPS aural?

 

Hi,

Not necessarily. The autoland check is done at 1500ft RA if I'm right and the GPWS flaps callout is way below that.

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Not necessarily. The autoland check is done at 1500ft RA if I'm right and the GPWS flaps callout is way below that.

 

Does the real aircraft check flap settings for the purposes of Autoland?

I know the Flight Control Computers look at inboard Trailing Edge flap position for some purpose, but I can't find anything written down saying that flaps-not-in-landing range will generate a NO AUTOLAND Caution/Advisory/Status....

Experts? Pilots?

Thanks

Cheers

JHW

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Where can I find detailed info on how autoland works?

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1 hour ago, Boomer said:

Where can I find detailed info on how autoland works?

Tutorial 1 starting on starting on page 79 with the approach and then the landing. And all through out the FCOM. Right click on the face of the FCOM. Left click on Find. A box will appear in the upper right. Type Land 3 in the box and left click Next. It will take you to the first mention of LAND 3 in the FCOM. Just keep on clicking and you will eventually come to the last mention of LAND 3.

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Hmm, just did all that.  Oddly neither document talks about actually how to USE the autoland.

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12 minutes ago, Boomer said:

Hmm, just did all that.  Oddly neither document talks about actually how to USE the autoland.

I see in your signature you have a T7. The LAND3 in a 744 is almost identical to the T7. Or you could try to find some video or written instructions on the Internet.

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1 hour ago, Boomer said:

 

Hmm, just did all that.  Oddly neither document talks about actually how to USE the autoland.

 

Hi,

There are some hints in the flight patterns charts (QRH page Man 2.2) and in the FCOM landing procedures page NP.21.46).
Both say "Verify the autoland status at 500 feet radio altitude." which means that if you are established on an ILS approach and properly configured for landing (and provided you don't have any failure, cf. FCOM 4.10.15), then the autoland mode will automatically arm.

On the 747 and 777 you don't have nothing additional to configure for an autoland. ILS cat III configuration is the same as the ILS cat I (except for the minimum setting) contrary to the NG where the configuration differs slightly (both CMD A and CMD B manually selected, both nav and course set to the same ILS...).

The FMC of the 747 and 777 will handle on its own the AP and nav requirements for the ILS cat III and Autoland provided you are established on the loc and glide and configured for landing.

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Aside from the buttonology of setting up for autoland, it may be of greater importance to read about Category III approaches and the incredible complexity involved with not only pilot training and aircraft equipment but also airfield management.  A CATIII approach is not something you decide you are going to try in a real cockpit without ATC clearance.

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On 05/03/2017 at 9:43 PM, Qavion2 said:

Does the real aircraft check flap settings for the purposes of Autoland?

A test was carried out in a Level D simulator in the UK recently and the 747-400 does not generate a NO AUTOLAND message during approach if landing flaps are not selected (see Aerowinx Forum).

The test was carried out using Flaps 20 and the aircraft descended to just below 1000' without any problems.

Cheers

JHW

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43 minutes ago, Qavion2 said:

A test was carried out in a Level D simulator in the UK recently and the 747-400 does not generate a NO AUTOLAND message during approach if landing flaps are not selected (see Aerowinx Forum).

The test was carried out using Flaps 20 and the aircraft descended to just below 1000' without any problems.

Cheers

JHW

This is why there is a limitation that states Autoland is authorized only for Flaps 25 and Flaps 30. On the 787, it is authorized for Flaps 20, 25, and 30. The big issue is the authorization is based on significant testing by Boeing and lessor flap settings were not tested for approval.

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6 minutes ago, Captain_Al said:

This is why there is a limitation that states Autoland is authorized only for Flaps 25 and Flaps 30.

Sorry, I don't follow you, Captain Al.  I understand the necessity for Flaps 25/30 to limit speed, but the NO AUTOLAND message does NOT appear if you have a non-landing flap setting.

Or... by "limitation", do you mean one written in a book to prevent you doing what the aircraft can do.

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Yes, thus the limitation, so if you Autoland with Flaps 20 on the 400, you just violated a limitation, the jet will do it, but you are prevented from doing it by aircraft limitation, which pilots have to adhere to...

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10 hours ago, Captain_Al said:

Yes, thus the limitation, so if you Autoland with Flaps 20 on the 400, you just violated a limitation, the jet will do it, but you are prevented from doing it by aircraft limitation, which pilots have to adhere to...

Flap 20 is not a 747 landing flap setting so why would Boeing certify flap 20 for autoland? NO AUTOLAND logic is not there to check the flight crew have set the flightdeck properly.

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1 hour ago, kevinh said:

NO AUTOLAND logic is not there to check the flight crew have set the flightdeck properly.

By regulation, you can't do a CAT III Autoland without the autobrakes working, either. The aircraft still doesn't stop you doing it . Of course, if your flaps are not set for landing, the aircraft will let you know in other ways.

You'd probably be surprised at how many systems use inboard (only) trailing edge flap position in their logic, yet don't bother to look at the ouboard trailing edge flap position. Would you still do an Autoland if only your inboard TE flaps were extended? Common sense applies.

It's a Boeing 747-400, not an Airbus. Pilots are still allowed to improvise :wink:

 

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So if I don't have auto brakes set to on I will not get a land 3 message?

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23 minutes ago, warbirds said:

So if I don't have auto brakes set to on I will not get a land 3 message?

Nope. John referred to regulations. Regulations and automation checks are entirely separate discussions (though they will occasionally reinforce one another). John was simply stating that, by regulation, the autobrakes must be working. By regulation, your landing lights must also be present and working in order to fly at night. You are not required to use them, however.

Nice paint work on the Connie, btw. I saw A2A posted something on Facebook either last night or early this morning. Looks good!

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2 hours ago, Qavion2 said:

By regulation, you can't do a CAT III Autoland without the autobrakes working, either. The aircraft still doesn't stop you doing it . Of course, if your flaps are not set for landing, the aircraft will let you know in other ways.

You'd probably be surprised at how many systems use inboard (only) trailing edge flap position in their logic, yet don't bother to look at the ouboard trailing edge flap position. Would you still do an Autoland if only your inboard TE flaps were extended? Common sense applies.

It's a Boeing 747-400, not an Airbus. Pilots are still allowed to improvise :wink:

 

Please don't start down that route even with a smiley. An Airbus won't stop you autolanding if you haven't set the autobrake either. If Airbus pilots really weren't allowed to improvise why bother having pilots at all?

There's a very good reason why aircraft don't just have a big "Autoland" button. Some controls must be manually set by the pilot according to the conditions. 

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2 minutes ago, kevinh said:

Please don't start down that route even with a smiley.

I don't see a reason to get upset about it. Airbus is a lot more automated than Boeing. It's just how they are, and there's no really right or wrong there.

Example: I was flying around in an Airbus 330 sim and the sim instructor said "all right, let's bring it back in." I went to kick the AP off and then reached for the throttles and was politely told off with "this isn't a Boeing - leave it alone and set the speed in the window." The guidance from Boeing is similar for the 777, though I'd argue that it isn't as strict as the leave-it-in-the-detent 330. Just a different approach to managing workload, and the associated human factors.

No reason you can't joke about it, though. I give my friends a hard time for having flown G1000s through their entire initial training. To me, flying steam gives you a better understanding of how things all come together. All the same, they can probably do many more cool things with glass than I can (and I still consider myself to know quite a bit about them), and if I had the choice of taking a G1000 up in the clag versus steam, it'd be the G1000 hands down.

...but I'm still gonna snipe at them for having that crutch the whole time. Luke knows. I gave him a world of a hard time for it, just because.

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5 hours ago, kevinh said:

Flap 20 is not a 747 landing flap setting so why would Boeing certify flap 20 for autoland? NO AUTOLAND logic is not there to check the flight crew have set the flightdeck properly.

LAND 3, LAND 2, and NO AUTOLAND logic is there to make sure you have the required redundancy required to make an autoland in Category II and III operations, it has nothing to do with the flight crew setting up the flight deck properly. The system is looking at the 3 FCC's, the 3 Radar Altimeters, the 3 ILS frequencies, etc to determine if you are Fail Operational , Fail Passive, or neither in which case you get NO AUTOLAND.

Your missing my point, you are restricted by limitation to Autoland with Flaps 25 and Flaps 30. The discussion was about whether the 747 could theoretically autoland with Flaps 20, and the answer is yes, nothing prevents it, except an aircraft limitation and yes, the fact that Flaps 20 is not a normal landing flap position. 

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5 hours ago, scandinavian13 said:

I don't see a reason to get upset about it. Airbus is a lot more automated than Boeing. It's just how they are, and there's no really right or wrong there.

Example: I was flying around in an Airbus 330 sim and the sim instructor said "all right, let's bring it back in." I went to kick the AP off and then reached for the throttles and was politely told off with "this isn't a Boeing - leave it alone and set the speed in the window." The guidance from Boeing is similar for the 777, though I'd argue that it isn't as strict as the leave-it-in-the-detent 330. Just a different approach to managing workload, and the associated human factors.

No reason you can't joke about it, though. I give my friends a hard time for having flown G1000s through their entire initial training. To me, flying steam gives you a better understanding of how things all come together. All the same, they can probably do many more cool things with glass than I can (and I still consider myself to know quite a bit about them), and if I had the choice of taking a G1000 up in the clag versus steam, it'd be the G1000 hands down.

...but I'm still gonna snipe at them for having that crutch the whole time. Luke knows. I gave him a world of a hard time for it, just because.

The problem as I see it is that it's an inaccurate joke. Good jokes are based on truth. People have the impression that Airbus is all automated and the pilot can't do anything about it. Of course they can, as you tried to prove in the A330 sim. Left to your own devices you would have succeeded. Yet the joke reinforces the false impression.

The 777 and 787 are just as automated as an Airbus.

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3 hours ago, kevinh said:

People have the impression that Airbus is all automated and the pilot can't do anything about it. Of course they can, as you tried to prove in the A330 sim. Left to your own devices you would have succeeded. Yet the joke reinforces the false impression.

I'm not surprised this "false impression" exists. During (Airbus) Normal Law operation (and even to a certain degree in Alternate Law), computers always sit between the pilot and the flight controls like a virtual nanny. Yes, Boeing 747-400s do have systems which help prevent excessive forces on control surfaces (and passengers), such as rudder ratio, aileron lockout and hydraulic relief valves, but it still doesn't stop the pilot doing something ill-advised like performing a barrel roll without having to push override buttons.

Autoland flare is only based on radio altitude. Even with the flaps in landing range, the autopilot doesn't know what flaps are selected (25 or 30) for the purposes of flare*. Probably the paper limitations are only placed on the flap positions because of excessive landing speeds (when the aircraft is heavy) and the fact that the engines won't be in high idle for go-around (High idle is active when the flaps are greater than or equal to 23 degrees).

* If both FMCs are inoperative, the autopilot does use flap position for computing minimum and maximum airspeeds for modes which use the elevator for speed control.

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