Boeing or not going

Autogen disappearing... caused by unlimited frames?

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Problem is the fps lock on the slider in Display Settings is not a frame rate limiter.

Locked fps includes the DX look-ahead buffer - in effect the thing keeps rendering look-ahead frames irrespective of refresh rate or frame limits. This is hard on the system.

To limit rendering use unlimited on the slider and VSync=On will Limit the fps to the refresh rate of the monitor profile, or set fps limit in NPI.

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28 minutes ago, SteveW said:

Problem is the fps lock on the slider in Display Settings is not a frame rate limiter.

Locked fps includes the DX look-ahead buffer - in effect the thing keeps rendering look-ahead frames irrespective of refresh rate or frame limits. This is hard on the system.

To limit rendering use unlimited on the slider and VSync=On will Limit the fps to the refresh rate of the monitor profile, or set fps limit in NPI.

If we do this, do we enable triple buffering and also not use the "fast sync" in the Nvida Control panel?

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Can we use FFTF 0.33 by force with unlimited FPS. VSYNC ON and monitor refresh  at 25HZ or is the Sim coded to 0.01(0.10) here?

I only need 25FPS for smooth flight and panning. Thought i might can decrease texture loading times. 

Second. 

AM=14 gives only 3 cores for SIM. Does this impact FPS VS All 4 with HT=off? 

Thanks Michael Moe 

 

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When using the fps slider setting values below Unlimited, frame lock, this creates next frames each based on a guaranteed same period between them, VSync and Triple Buffer settings are ignored. Each frame, physics and terrain location, is calculated for the exact same time period between frames. For example, at locked 20fps we have each frame guaranteed to be calculated for 1/20s = 50ms ahead of the last. Up to 3 frames (default) are built looking ahead, 50, 100, 150, 200ms. If each next frame is available on-time the buffer is depleted by one frame, and that frame calculated specifically for that time, appears at the right time in the sim. If the system drags a little at any stage there are frames in hand which will be depleted rapidly and take several frame to replenish - assuming the drag on the system has relented. And so the successful use of the locked frame rate relies on a very powerful system, one that can run at 60fps to provide a 20 lock can replenish the buffer in time for it to remain useful.

AMs affect the fps capability in odd ways but all things done right can yield a few percent more fps. Three cores works fine with all the sims, four cores not providing much more throughput than three with FSX and P3D, although P3D v4 makes more use of four.

HT off vs HT on: HT off saves a lot of head scratching and AM=14 leaves a gaping hole of a CPU core to attract activity other than the sim. HT on generally is helped when using AMs to distribute processes of the sim onto the next real core rather than just the next Logical Processor of the same core. These sims split out across LPs so if we concentrate on allowing it to split out across cores rather than LPs we can move work onto the next whole core.

It is important to understand that (taking the four core as an example) with HT enabled and AM=85=01,01,01,01 we are in fact only presenting to the sim what looks exactly like four core HT off, which is AM=15=1111=No AM. But looking at the AM 85 we can see we have zeros and these attract activity since these look like any other cores. The bottom line is with HT enabled we have problems to overcome with the way addons and other processes work and it is this that scuppers HT=On performance.

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2 hours ago, Mikelab6 said:

I don't understand how you guys are able to have smooth panning in VC at fixed 22 or 30 FPS. Ar you talking about smooth flight or smooth panning ?

With my 60 Hz monitor, all below 60 FPS is not smooth at all (the flight is, not the view panning). I have to stay above 60 FPS to have smooth panning on a 60 Hz refresh rate monitor. If you are using 30 hz refresh rate monitor I understand.

My questions for all of you saying having a smooth experience at locked FPS below 60

1. Do you have smooth flight and smooth view panning ?

2.Are you using a 60 Hz monitor ?

Thanks !

Mike

This discussion is coming up every now and then.

There are people saying they have a smooth experience at frame rates as low as 20 fps or even lower. Other people are saying they need 30 fps or more or they can even see a difference between 30 fps and 60 fps.

 

Unfortunately the most essential aspect most of the time is missed.

No matter how high the fps are, everything that appears on a screen always is a sequence of single frames. The perception of a smooth movement in the end is an optical illusion created by the eyes and the brain. The most important part of the „system“ in this regard is the user's brain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_rate

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_perception

At what frame rate the brain is capable of creating the illusion of a smooth movement is highly individual and depends not only on biological prerequisites but also on training, habituation and focus.

It is just like the famous picture where you can see a young or an old woman depending on what your brain is focussed on.

http://psylux.psych.tu-dresden.de/i1/kaw/diverses Material/www.illusionworks.com/html/perceptual_ambiguity.html

Some people see the young woman, others see the old woman. After some training most people are able to „switch“ between them.

 

With single frames or smooth motion it is the same. If the brain concentrates on seeing single frames it will most probably see single frames. And the more the brain tries and trains to recognize single frames the more it will be able to do so. The frame rate at which single frames are perceived gets higher and higher. In the end the brain might even be able to see a difference between 30 and 60 fps. While this might be an impressive ability of the eyes-brain-system – it ruins the sim experience.

But the brain can also be trained and habituated in the other direction. If the brain focuses on perceiving a smooth motion it will probably see a smooth motion. The more the brain tries and trains to perceive a smooth motion the lower the frames can get for the brain to manage to do so. In the end the brain might be able to perceive a smooth motion even under 20 fps. Those are happy simmers.

 

Of course the less movement of the scene the easier it will be for the brain to perceive a smooth movement. Without any movement at all even 1 fps is „smooth“. Looking at a tennis match (with a fast moving ball) 60 fps might not be enough. That is why „stutters“ are most easily perceived when flying low, fast and turning sharply - or when panning around. So when flying a B747 most probably a lower fps rate will do than when doing aerobatics.

And apparently the brain can hardly perceive a smooth motion if the frame rate is unsteady. The brain needs a steady frame rate to create the optical illusion of a smooth movement. That is why it is essential to have the sim run at a steady frame rate (by limiting the fps in the sim or by using VSync and the the refresh rate of the monitor).

 

What frame rate is the lower limit for the brain to be able to create the illusion of a smooth movement will probably be individually different and depending on training and habituation. Since movies have been shot at 24 fps for decades without people complaing about stutters that might be a good hint that the average brain is able to create the illusion of a smooth motion at 24 fps.

 

After all a recommendation for those who now need 30 fps or more (and still see stutters or would like to increase their graphic settings) might be:

- Set the sim rate to something between 20 and 25 fps.

- Adjust the sim settings so that this frame rate is achieved steadily.

- Stop looking at the sim rate.

- Stop looking for stutters.

- Try to see a smooth movement and enjoy flying.

The brain will adapt to that frame rate over time. Not within minutes or hours. It takes weeks or even months.

After a few months of habituation most people would probably be able to enjoy a smooth sim at around 20 fps (except for inevitable lags when complex new scenery / textures get loaded).

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A point often overlooked is that a human can see the difference between 110 and 120Hz, but a slightly inconsistent time between those cannot be ascertained. However if we drop down to 20Hz the human can determine a slightly inconsistent time between each. If we choose slower fps we have to concentrate on improving the consistency. The frame lock works best for fps below 30.

When we use Unlimited, VSync=On, we don't actually get frames limited to the monitor refresh frequency, rather the GPU output is 'steered' toward achieving that common time period between frames ascertained from the monitor refresh value. If the system has a high availability or throughput available it can destabilise the apparent smoothness of the sim. Strangely, a system set up to flat-line in some aspect can often appear smoother than a system set up better for full-on throughput - these would better suit locked fps setting.

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2 hours ago, Nyxx said:

You sure Vic?

FIBER_FRAME_TIME_FRACTION (default is 0.33 or 30% of the frame time).
MIN_FIBER_TIME_SEC (Default is 0.001 or 1ms)
MAX_FIBER_TIME_SEC (Default is 0.1 or 100ms)

Yup. Those are three separate settings, each with it's own range. FFTF is 0.1-.99.

FFTF is a percentage, the other two are time fractions. Not the same.

 

Vic

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Hello, I've got some problem:

in my Settings i have unlocked FPS because when i locked FPS in P3D to 30 the peformance is bad. If I unlocked the FPS the peformance is very smooth. VSync is on.

The Problem is the autogen does not load during the approach while I unlocked the FPS.

So how can I get smooth peformance and full loading autogen ?

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Hmmm, Vsync, fast sync, FFTF, Affinity mask, unlimited, locked at 30, locked at 25, locked at 20, 30Hz or 60Hz... word not allowed! 😢 Sorry guys, I'm soooo, disappointed, just when I thought 4.4 was giving me (us all) the perfect sim, I am now seeing disappearing autogen on every flight in the NGX. 😣  This is something I never experienced in 4.3.  I have done a day's testing today with every conceivable setting, but still can't get rid of this issue. All Orbx regions disabled, running medium settings, with lowest scenery resolution 256(?), unlimited and locked frames, AM on and off, FFTF=0.01 FFTF=0.33, all frame hungry aspects in the control panel unticked. This thread is from August 2017 and I'm posting in December 2018, and STILL no resolution to this issue! 😔 

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I found I had to do a full install of 4.4 to really see what it brings. 

A two night job, cleaning everything out and reinstalled everything from scratch.

The very first flight I did LEMG to LEIB, I truly sad out load offensive initials not allowed, I’ve never seen the sim look like this. LEIB looked nothing like I had seen before. 

I truly think no matter how careful anyone is after time it just needs a clean out and an reinstall to get the very best out of it.

Just my 2 cents.

BTW all my scenery is active with no problems before with client etc updates I was getting short pauses when close to landing just one of the many little clues to it not being right.

 

Edited by Nyxx

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I had a super smooth take-off from Santa Barbara ORBX and only had 24 FPS.  I figure my system is running optimally.

Regards
bs

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On 8/8/2017 at 10:38 AM, Nyxx said:

Correct,

You can try 0.01

I use 0.10

With no FFTF your setting is 0.33, what that means is 1/3 of every second is allocated to loading textures. A FPS hit, adding in a FFTF sorts that problem out.

But you get the better texture loading as you PC is not trying to give you 30-40-80 fps all the time.

I use 0.2, as I've noticed a rhythmic stutter every second when using 0.15 down to 0.1. (I lock my FPS at 30, vsync and TB on)

But everyone's experience will be different. 

Certainly for me, unlimited yields greater fps but ever decreasing autogen loading.

With FFTF at 0.2, I lose maybe 7 fps on average in heavy areas, such as Heathrow but it quickly recovers to 30 fps when clearing London area.

In the FSLabs A320 at UK2000 EGLL, runway 09R, UTLive at 50% airliners and 0% General aviation, I see FPS of 22-24 but it is pretty smooth.

I have FTX Global, Vector, EU LC also.

 

Stu

 

Stu

Edited by Bunchy
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9 hours ago, Nyxx said:

I found I had to do a full install of 4.4 to really see what it brings. 

A two night job, cleaning everything out and reinstalled everything from scratch.

The very first flight I did LEMG to LEIB, I truly sad out load offensive initials not allowed, I’ve never seen the sim look like this. LEIB looked nothing like I had seen before. 

I truly think no matter how careful anyone is after time it just needs a clean out and an reinstall to get the very best out of it.

Just my 2 cents.

BTW all my scenery is active with no problems before with client etc updates I was getting short pauses when close to landing just one of the many little clues to it not being right.

 

Hi Dave, sure, I have been putting off a full reinstall, but I think it is on the cards 😐

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As Stu says: going too low on FFTF can produce stalling of the background process.

Allowing too high an fps when in dense areas will also overwhelm the sim. Control fps with VSync and the monitor refresh rate setting and/or an external limiter.

Adjust the settings and check in task manager graphs that no CPUs are at or near 100% 90% is enough. P3D requires overhead available in the system.

Edited by SteveW

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2 hours ago, SteveW said:

As Stu says: going too low on FFTF can produce stalling of the background process.

Allowing too high an fps when in dense areas will also overwhelm the sim. Control fps with VSync and the monitor refresh rate setting and/or an external limiter.

Adjust the settings and check in task manager graphs that no CPUs are at or near 100% 90% is enough. P3D requires overhead available in the system.

Hi Steve, during my all day testing yesterday, I flew the same route with different parameters, none of the settings returned anything other than disappearing autogen on approach, including vanilla cfg, with of course FFTF=0.33

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Howard, maybe you miss a small detail? In my case, disappearing autogen is almost completely eliminated even with a setting higher than "medium" for "autogen draw distance". But, what I use is not only the internal limiter, it includes also:

VSYNC on, triple buffering off inside P3D, locked FPS to 30.

An AM tweak in the config limiting P3D to all logical cores (for your CPU it would be "84").

BAT files forcing ActiveSky, REX Skyforce and ProATC/X to cores 5 and 6 only

Basically no "tweak" in the nVIDIA Control Panel. The only thing I have there not already in the general profile: prefer maximum performance.

Then, what SteveW is referring to: if I fly 2-3h with the AS Airbus from A to B, I usually have 30FPS until the destination with a complex airport comes in sight, there sometimes FPS drop below 30 (but rarely). If your FPS drop below the limit you set, all your overhead is gone and the rig runs at ist limits and you should lower your FPS Limit. Are you sure that you constantly have at least the FPS you limited P3D to?

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4 hours ago, AnkH said:

Howard, maybe you miss a small detail? In my case, disappearing autogen is almost completely eliminated even with a setting higher than "medium" for "autogen draw distance". But, what I use is not only the internal limiter, it includes also:

VSYNC on, triple buffering off inside P3D, locked FPS to 30.

An AM tweak in the config limiting P3D to all logical cores (for your CPU it would be "84").

BAT files forcing ActiveSky, REX Skyforce and ProATC/X to cores 5 and 6 only

Basically no "tweak" in the nVIDIA Control Panel. The only thing I have there not already in the general profile: prefer maximum performance.

Then, what SteveW is referring to: if I fly 2-3h with the AS Airbus from A to B, I usually have 30FPS until the destination with a complex airport comes in sight, there sometimes FPS drop below 30 (but rarely). If your FPS drop below the limit you set, all your overhead is gone and the rig runs at ist limits and you should lower your FPS Limit. Are you sure that you constantly have at least the FPS you limited P3D to?

Thanks for the info Chris. I have all the things you suggested, except FFTF=0.33, maybe I should give that some more attention, along with trying locking frames to 25.

 

4 hours ago, DrumsArt said:

Thanks for the link Richard. I had seen this video before, but had forgotten all about it! I will follow advice and see how things turn out. Cheers.

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12 hours ago, Rockliffe said:

Thanks for the info Chris. I have all the things you suggested, except FFTF=0.33, maybe I should give that some more attention, along with trying locking frames to 25.

Correct, I forgot this. I have manually added FFTF=0.33 to the config, even though it might not be needed when using locked FPS and as it is the default value.

BTW: I now also use FFTF Dynamic, as I was interested of the capabilities of this Little tool. So far no time for 2-3h flights, but I am curious if starting from a heavy airport with FFTF Dynamic Setting FFTF to "0.01" will have any adverse effect on autogen loading later on in the flight or not.

My only problem is: I have almost no time for flying these days...

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I have been using Process Lasso for several months now and find it does the AM stuff brilliantly.

Can see any reason to go back to an AM setting in the CFG, just limit frames vsync to 1/2 refresh and getting smooth stutter free with my settings maxed out for my gaming laptop.

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2 hours ago, Langyboy63 said:

I have been using Process Lasso for several months now and find it does the AM stuff brilliantly.

Can see any reason to go back to an AM setting in the CFG, just limit frames vsync to 1/2 refresh and getting smooth stutter free with my settings maxed out for my gaming laptop.

So long as PL only allows P3D to start on the AM LPs it's fine. If you allow P3D to start with no AM in the P3D cfg it will align itself on all cores or LPs and then the process manager corrals those tasks into a crowd onto the less cores or LPs assigned in the mask - which won't work the same.

Also the AM specified that the Process Manager is applying to P3D presents a set of available cores or LPs that look like the available cores of the processor. So when you specify the AM in the P3D config it also knows the cores of the entire CPU and assesses its tasks across all the available cores or LPs in the P3D cfg AM.

So it's much safer to recommend to simply put the AM in the P3D config and let it get on with that task since the process manager alters the P3D 'view' of the CPU. Use the process Manager to handle the rest of the stuff, that's great.

Edited by SteveW
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Ok, think I get what you are saying, i will try an AM entry in the CFG and disable the p3d profile in LP to see what it does

But did make a huge difference when I started using LP to handle the AM stuff, completely got rid of the stutters for me.

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Yes - I'm  just saying we have to be careful when externally mothering ANY apps that do their own AM thing. 

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The benefit of using the process managers such as Proc Lasso comes from the fact that they can keep addon apps within a specific partition of the CPU away from important P3D tasks. We can't improve on P3D's AM function, or any other AM handling app, by corralling onto lesser cores with another process. We can easily mess it around, it's OK if we are aware of the pitfalls.

P3D is not the same as regular apps. P3D can make use of high clock rate on particular cores, and also can make use of Hyperthreading. We see that some tasks run in the background and take seconds to complete, these can happily be ganged onto HT LP pairs and they extract maximum performance from those cores. Then we have some more important tasks that are frame time critical, we don't want these to share an LP on the same HT core with another task if we can help it.

The ultimate system will demonstrate a purposeful mixture of those tasks sorted correctly.

The main thing is that with an HT system the first task appearing on the 'one' on the right of the AM ones and zeros string (rightmost digit is top left in task manager) does not share that core with another task, because it can use the entire bandwidth of the core. So we see some amount up to 100% on that one LP of that core with the main task. Even though we might see only a few percent on the sister LP, that's just as unwanted as if it was a big percent. Remember that an LP showing zero percent with a sister LP showing some percent of use is still a core IN USE with zero showing on the dial.

We can't just throw all the LPs or cores at the sim because it will use them all pushing aside other processes, including those resources supplying the sim delaying the sim. We can't increase priority of the sim, that simply decreases priority of resources supplying the sim and the performance drops in the same way.

So we can add LPs one by one and see the time to load the scenario comes down. When we start the sim, that's the biggest hit the system sustains. The faster that works the better the sim can run - right? Well...up to a point...

We see a decrease in loading time with every core or LP added to P3D.

But if we use them all, so that the last few perhaps only gained us a second, could those cores could be utilised more effectively for the weather and traffic addons?

Not only that, that's good, but not so essential as system available bandwidth.

How many P3D background processes loading scenery saturate the bus? Put it in a non technical way - how many tasks can read the disk system all at once before it slows down to the detriment of some other task like the P3D renderer?

If we keep on allocating more and more cores to the sim, after it gains us little time, we have overreached the available throughput and in effect will be hogging the system for no gain in performance. This even creates unnecessary heat and also can and will result in less overall performance at some stage. There's going to be a sweet spot.

After that we tune the addons away from the important cores, and give everything at least two LPs even if on the same core - otherwise they can be found waiting for stuff on their own LP.

Only now we can worry about the GPU settings and other stuff, since we have a good foundation to enable the data to the card. With care of the CPU side we get less chance of bottlenecking onto the GPU card and that can produce odd errors and low GPU throughput.

Don't try altering the AM after that just because some part of the system doesn't work right. If it doesn't respond in the way described suspect you have something flatlining rather than rip up the rule book to blame HT and AMs.

 

 

 

Edited by SteveW

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Ok so dont use PL for p3d then.

 

Thanks for your explanation, I will read it more thoroughly when I get home.

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