Jim Young

Q-400 Lands Safely after Declaring Emergency

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More landing gear issues ... poor Q, it's getting a reputation it doesn't want.

Cheers, Rob.

 

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The DeHavilland/Bombardier aircraft have been plagued with this issue from the start, but as the aircraft get older, the issues tend to become more frequent and the maintenance department is required to do more checks and inspections on the aircraft.  Of course components do fail from time to time, which is an uncontrollable issue.

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If these keeps happening, they'll have to make it a feature on the Majestic version :biggrin:

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To be fair, the others all happened in a short period of time, SAS's problems traced back to maintenance issues.

Flybe's recent Amsterdam was not the gears' fault and this one we'll have to wait and see. Remember the Q400 flies 10-12 sectors a day in often crappy weather and a lot of them are now 10-14 years old.

The numbers of cycles are very high and with the stick it gets I'm not surprised there aren't more issues.

Strong and capable aircraft. I didn't really enjoy my the last of my 6 years flying them, but I'd been spoilt on the 146 for the previous 6 years.

 

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4 hours ago, Rob Ainscough said:

More landing gear issues ... poor Q, it's getting a reputation it doesn't want.

Someone knows the reason why the Q400 is also named the "Crash-8"?.

Cheers, Ed

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I still think the number of collapses are quite low, more hype then anything. They get about 1 a year now for the past 7 years. It was 10 years ago they were getting higher numbers and they figured it out working with SAS.

How does approximately one landing gear incident per year compare to other aircraft?

 

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1 hour ago, Matthew Kane said:

How does approximately one landing gear incident per year compare to other aircraft?

Relative to the number Q's in regular service, landing gear incidents are way above average.

Dash 8 (less SAS) Landing gear incidents that were not a result of pilot error (or maintenance issues) - 20 incidents for 1000+ active Dash-8 (about 2% failure rate):


On 9 June 1995, Ansett New Zealand Flight 703 from Auckland Airport to Palmerston North crashed west of the Tararua Ranges and 16 km east of Palmerston North airport during an instrument approach in inclement weather. A landing gear failure distracted the pilot and co-pilot... 
On 28 January 2002, a wheel detached from the starboard side of the undercarriage at an aircraft owned by Tyrolean Airways while taxiing before takeoff from Frankfurt Airport...
On 17 April 2005, Tobago Express 534 made an emergency landing at Piarco International Airport Trinidad following a failure of the nose gear...
On 13 March 2007, All Nippon Airways Flight 1603, a Q400 nose-landed safely at Kōchi Ryōma Airport after the front wheel of the aircraft failed to deploy...
On 20 April 2007, a Dash 8 operated by Bahamasair suffered a port side landing gear collapse on landing at Governor's Harbour Airport...
On 12 August 2007, at 9:37 local time, a Dash 8 Q400 aircraft skidded off the runway at Gimhae International Airport, Busan, South Korea, injuring 6 people and damaging the aircraft, particularly the left propeller...
On September 21, 2007, Lufthansa Flight LH4076 (tail number D-ADHA) with 68 passengers and four crew members was on flight to Florence, Italy when problems with the front landing gear were identified...
On 16 November 2008, Flight 4551, a Dash 8-300 operated by Piedmont Airlines landed at Philadelphia International Airport without its nosegear...
On 13 February 2009, Austrian Airlines Flight OS780, operated by Tyrolean Airways, a scheduled flight from Skopje to Vienna failed to retract landing gear after take-off...
On 12 May 2009, Colgan Air Flight 3268 reported tyre detachment after landing at Buffalo Niagara International Airport. It was discovered that a wheel bearing overheated and snapped, leading to the detachment...
On 30 September 2010, Air New Zealand subsidiary Air Nelson Flight 8841 was flying from Wellington International Airport to Nelson Airport but was diverted to Blenheim due to bad weather in Nelson, New Zealand. On landing, the nosegear on the Dash 8 Series 300 collapsed...
On 9 February 2011, an Air New Zealand Bombardier Q300 Dash 8 aircraft – Flight NZ8309, operated by the subsidiary Air Nelson again suffered a nose wheel failure upon landing at Blenheim Airport...
On 4 March 2011, a wheel fell off a Bombardier Q400 operating a Flybe flight from Exeter to Newcastle...
On 7 March 2011, an Air Iceland Bombardier Q100 Dash 8 aircraft suffered a collapsed right landing gear whilst landing at Nuuk Airport...
On 18 May 2013, US Airways subsidiary Piedmont Airlines Flight 4560, a Dash 8-100, made a belly landing at Newark International Airport after its left main landing gear failed to extend...
On 27 September 2013, Croatia Airlines Flight 464 from Zagreb to Zurich – Dash 8 Q-400 registration number 9A-CQC landed without nose wheel at Zurich Airport...
On 6 November 2014, Jazz (airline), operating as Air Canada Express Flight 8481, from Calgary to Grande Prairie – Dash 8 Q-400 made an emergency landing at Edmonton International Airport. One of the main landing gear tires apparently blew on takeoff...
On 30 September 2015 a Luxair aircraft flying from Saarbruecken to Luxembourg experienced smoke in the cabin during the initial climb out phase and performed a belly landing on the runway... (was this gear related?)
September 17, 2016: airBaltic flight BT641 using a Bombardier Q400 NextGen (registered YL-BAI) from Riga to Zurich made an emergency landing at Riga Airport without its nose landing gear deployed...
On 23 February 2017: Flybe Flight 1284 using a Bombardier Q400 (registered G-JECP) from Edinburgh to Amsterdam made a landing at Amsterdam Airport Schiphol in windy conditions resulting in a right main gear collapse...
On 10 November 2017: Flybe Flight 331 using a Bombardier Q400 (registered G-JEDU) from Belfast City to Inverness made an emergency landing at Belfast International Airport after a nose wheel gear issue...

Boeing 737-xxx Landing gear incidents that were not a result of pilot error - 6 Incidents for 9000+ active 737s (0.23% failure rate):


November 4, 1980 – TAAG Angola Airlines 737-200 registration D2-TAA, that landed short of the runway at Benguela Airport, slid some 900 m following the collapse of the gear;
May 25, 1982 – VASP 737-2A1 registration PP-SMY, on landing procedures at Brasília during rain, made a hard landing with nose gear first. The gear collapsed and the aircraft skidded off the runway breaking in two.
March 27, 1983 – LAM Mozambique Airlines 737-200 registration C9-BAB Undercarriage failure after landing some 400 metres (1,300 ft) short of the runway at Quelimane Airport.
February 14, 1997 – Varig 737-241, registration PP-CJO operating flight 265, flying from Marabá to Carajás, while on touchdown procedures at Carajás during a thunderstorm, veered off the right side of the runway after its right main landing gear collapsed rearwards. The aircraft crashed into a forest. One crew member was killed.[54]
February 21, 2007: Adam Air Flight 172, using a 737-300, suffered a structural failure when landing at Juanda International Airport.
March 28, 2017: Peruvian Airlines Flight 112, a 737-300 departed from Jorge Chávez International Airport and landed in Francisco Carle Airport in Jauja where it suffered an undercarriage failure
 

Cheers, Rob.

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Boeing 737-xxx Landing gear incidents that were not a result of pilot error ??

 

November 4, 1980 - TAAG Angola Airlines 737-200 -      Landed short off the runway = Pilot error

May 25, 1982 – VASP 737-2A1 -    Landed nose wheel first = Pilot error

March 27, 1983 – LAM Mozambique Airlines 737-200  - Landed short of the runway = Pilot error

February 14, 1997 – Varig 737-241 - Heavy Landing = Pilot error

 

So to me , 4 of those 6 737 incidents where caused by pilot error.  The Q failure rate is way to high.. The MEL rate is also very high compared to the 737 even on new frames. I don't know what they are doing in Quebec but I hope the C series doesn't have similar problems with its entry into service

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I understand they Flybe flies in an area where there is frequent high winds and bad weather.  I've always wondered how these Dash 8's can land in crosswind landings where the aircraft is almost turned sideways until touchdown and the landing gear can survive:

 

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2 hours ago, Jim Young said:

I understand they Flybe flies in an area where there is frequent high winds and bad weather.  I've always wondered how these Dash 8's can land in crosswind landings where the aircraft is almost turned sideways until touchdown and the landing gear can survive:

Yes but being a sort of descendant of the DeHaviland Beavers to Otters to Dash 7 then 8's they were really designed with Canada's North in mind. 

I am not sure how much the landing gear is a design fault or a maintenance issue, the airlines using them are more northern and wet and windy climates. It is a workhorse for extreme weather conditions.

I read the wiki page on it that mentions maintenance issues, but that is just a Wiki page so not the best source 

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In aircraft safety, it's all relative. 20 landing gear malfunctions are a lot less dangerous than e.g. a single rudder hardover that kills everyone on board.

Looks like all fatal crashes of the dash 8 have been caused by pilot error, that seems a good safety record for an aircraft with a production number >1.000.

 

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19 minutes ago, Murmur said:

In aircraft safety, it's all relative. 20 landing gear malfunctions are a lot less dangerous than e.g. a single rudder hardover that kills everyone on board.

Looks like all fatal crashes of the dash 8 have been caused by pilot error, that seems a good safety record for an aircraft with a production number >1.000.

 

True, I think it is a tough little workhorse that gets a lot of abuse, most likely the reason behind those numbers, wear and tear over time from abuse.

I like them and our weather in New Zealand is among the windiest with snow and ice due to south pacific and Antarctica storm fronts, they take the abuse. 

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8 hours ago, Chock said:

If these keeps happening, they'll have to make it a feature on the Majestic version :biggrin:

LOL! :cool:

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To be fair, and as others have pointed out, those Dash 8 - especially the FlyBe ones which make many short hops around the UK - get the @ss flown out of them. With lots of cycles, it's inevitable they're going to get what appears to be more issues than other types which may fly the same amount of hours, but with less landings and take offs.

This sort of thing is also not helped by the generally over the top news reporting of such relatively minor incidents, where they make it sound as though there was a huge amount of danger; good old hackneyed journalese phrases abound in such poor reporting: 'crash landing' and 'hero pilot' are guaranteed to be in there somewhere.

Landing with a nose wheel jammed up isn't trivial of course, but it's unlikely to result in a massive crash so long as the nose is held off the runway for as long as possible. If you've burned off most of the fuel, a slower landing is achievable and the nose can be held off for longer at a lighter weight. In any case, scraping the front end a bit is not going to result in a fire of any great proportions when you've burned off nearly every drop other than what is necessary for a couple of goes at bringing it in. We all know the pilot won't have had too many problems landing that thing just fine; I'd put money on the PIC actually liking having the chance to have a go at it, because he or she will have been aware that it really didn't pose that much of a chance of anything disastrous occurring, and it's a cool one for the logbook and career reputation.

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19 hours ago, Matthew Kane said:

I am not sure how much the landing gear is a design fault or a maintenance issue, the airlines using them are more northern and wet and windy climates. It is a workhorse for extreme weather conditions.

I cannot see how those long and undersized "stork leg" landing struts can handle the stress, particularly under some of the extreme cross-wind landings they occasionally endure.

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1 hour ago, n4gix said:

I cannot see how those long and undersized "stork leg" landing struts can handle the stress, particularly under some of the extreme cross-wind landings they occasionally endure.

I agree, I used to live across from Wellington Airport and it is probably the windiest airport in the world. It was fun watching them land in those conditions. This is a typical Wellington day from my old neighbourhood, you can also see an ATR landing with its gear attached to the fuselage, that would be a benefit in these conditions:

 

 

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Oh yeah and I forgot to say, the reason why the Dash 8 uses the long landing gear compared to the ATR's is because the Dash 8 was designed to land on gravel landing strips in the far north. ATR's were not designed for that use

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On 11/10/2017 at 0:36 PM, Chock said:

If these keeps happening, they'll have to make it a feature on the Majestic version :biggrin:

I keep blowing tires (tyres for those across the pond) om my Majestic!

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The Q300 and Embraer Tprops were my favorite puddle jumpers. Took a Q300 from Phoenix to Durango, CO and back, it was such a pleasant flight.  I also liked the old Shorts aircraft, flew those between Chicago O'hare and Springfield IL.  They had such large windows, I sat there and just soaked up the sun and the scenery.

John

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Ok. Before it fades from my mind with age, I flew 3,500hrs on the Q400 in generally wet and windy weather to and from the Isle of Man. I've landed in a blizzard in Geneva, regularly had to break for the 1200m rw21  circling approach and plenty of CAT2 apps too. I know the aircraft well. 

The long spindly undercarriage is quite tough, it is a bit springy, and a landing with any side loading will "wind up" the gear causing a lot of shaking motion, until you kick it off. Talking of that, the large 2 piece rudder is magnificent You can hold a perfect side slip, or crab and swing with ease. With flap 15 it always feels like it's too slow, F35 gives vibes and is agricultural, but effective.

The roll control is excellent and frankly, you have very good roll, yaw and pitch control, very powerful engines and a wide spaced gear. What's not to love? The key to a TP, is that zero thrust is not the idle position on the throttles. The Q400 lands well with 11%, floats with 12% and falls out of the sky with 10%. The power levers are very sensitive at the bottom of the range, less so at the top, really the wrong way around! Hard landings are usually either he result of floating or taking too much power off. I've done both (rarely) and seen it a lot of times. Difficult to take control at that point.... Q400 operators have a lot of young inexperienced F/Os but they don't half learn their trade quickly! It takes a good pair of hands to consistently land a Q400 smoothly, but it can be done.

Now, the 737 is designed to be planted onto runways. I can also land one smoothly, but often need to be a bit firmer on a certain Wet West Yorkshire hillside, due to weather and landing performance issues.

In a rough nasty windy day at Leeds, I'd frankly sooner be back in that Q400! At all other times I'm now a Boeing Man!

 

A final point, the wide track of the Dash, helps a lot in side winds for stability. Take a look at any number of videos of BHX in a good crosswind. The real stars are the guys (and girls don't forget!) who smoothly line up and hold both rudder and ailerons into wind after landing- keep flying it down the runway as long as you can. Lovely shot of a 777 doing just that. Quite a few Q400s showing good skills too. Then a few ATRs really struggling. Less power = less need for rudder authority.

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Wish I hadn't started reading this, I normally fly Easyjet (as a passenger) from Bristol to Belfast but next week am flying Birmingham to Belfast on a Q400 Flybe because the parking was too expensive at Bristol! I hope my seat isn't beside the prop :)

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