55 minutes ago, J van E said:

Sigh... I know the manual says that but it is my believe this isn’t so. The screenshots I posted were all made without SF running and they DO show the SF models. Do you always simply believe what a developer or manual says? I see no harm in using logic and thinking for myself or questioning things. But it’s no problem: if you want to have SF running in the background then do so LOL 

Funny Jeroen because I have seen non standard 3d models in the sim (which you won't see when SF is closed lol)
At this point i really like Tim and co there work, besides the WX engine which was and still isn't up to my standards and disabled the engine...
So if you want to close SF and still believe it doesn't matter, be my guest lol

(Ps.:and why would I believe a user, and thinks he is the only one with correct knowledge lol)

Entertaining exchange of ideas, guys. I’m sure we are all riveted and laying bets as to who will eventually concede the argument. It might be helpful (or not) if I add another idea into the mix.

My understanding surrounding this business of syncing has more to do with evolving weather patterns than a static scenario. As has been stated, P3D by default is capable of changing cloud structures. However, these are relatively few in number as compared now to those being provided by REX SF3D. With ASP4 and REX SF3D running together we are now seeing the portrayal of more realistic cloud structures, which override (compliment?) the basic P3D capability. These are changing on the fly according to shifts in weather conditions experienced en route during a flight. In other words, REX SF3D is syncing with data injected by ASP4 in an attempt to produce as realistic a portrayal of changing weather conditions during a flight as is currently possible. From what I’m seeing, it’s doing a pretty good job.

As they say, just my two pence worth...lol!

Regards,

Mike

1 hour ago, awf said:

Funny Jeroen because I have seen non standard 3d models in the sim (which you won't see when SF is closed lol)

Er... the point is that I also have seen non standard 3d models in the sim without SF running so I don't exactly understand what you are trying to say here...

1 hour ago, awf said:

(Ps.:and why would I believe a user, and thinks he is the only one with correct knowledge lol)

Understandable, haha! And as I stated already you don't have to believe me at all! No one has to believe me: I am just thinking out loud and everyone can ignore me completely. I simply like to think out loud on forums.

15 minutes ago, Cruachan said:

I’m sure we are all riveted and laying bets as to who will eventually concede the argument.

Haha, I don't mind conceding the argument: I've made my point and if others don't get what I am saying than that's that. No problem at all. It's only that as long I have the idea people misunderstand me, which is the case here, I wil try to make my point clear. But once I've done that and people understand what I mean to say but decide to ignore my opinion that's fine and I will be done too. But reading the responses it seems to me some people still don't get my point.

15 minutes ago, Cruachan said:

However, these are relatively few in number as compared now to those being provided by REX SF3D. With ASP4 and REX SF3D running together we are now seeing the portrayal of more realistic cloud structures, which override (compliment?) the basic P3D capability, and are changing on the fly according to shifts in weather conditions experienced en route during a flight. In other words, REX SF3D is syncing with data injected by ASP4 in an attempt to produce as realistic a portrayal of changing weather conditions during a flight as is currently possible.

Well, you are forgetting that ASCA also already added a lot of new structures to P3D, long before SF had been released. And all those structures were simply used by P3D, according to shifts in weather conditions, just as the default structures had been used years before that, according to shifts in weather conditions. SF now adds even more structures but these structures also can be used on the fly, according to shifts in weather conditions. The point is that cloud structures do not need to be injected or synced: they are simply read from disk. Why would SF suddenly need a sync option and to be running in the background when that wasn't needed at all for default structures and for ASCA structures? Again, I am using thinking out loud, using logic. I simply like to question things others take for granted. Nothing wrong with that imho. I am really enjoying this conversation (or discussion): that's what forums are for! Exchanging of thoughts!

OK it boils down to this.

You say people don't need to have SF open, You say with default structures and with ASCA installed its adding even more structures. So some were on my SSD I have a ton of structures there by default and because I installed ASCA even though I have only used it for sky colours running though ASCA, P3D is now using all of ASCA cloud structures as well as the default ones.

You're also saying that Rex are lying/misleading us to believe that we need SF open to be able to use there new cloud and structures engine. Can you please enlighten us with why you think Rex would say that and not simply say."Just install SF close it down and your good to go!"

This has nothing to do with as you call it "take for granted" or "thinking out loud" your saying there lying and we are not talking about a backstreet developer we all have never heard of, its REX.

That's not a line I wish to cross. 

How Rex sync works I have no idea but since it taken 3 years personally I am willing to trust them and they probably have no wish to explain how it works just to pacify you J. Even if you're probably the most respected member here.

 

I will try to upload pictures of clouds from next flight but yesterday I did a full flight with AS and ASCA open but REX Sky Force closed and the clouds were all new. Not seen before REX install.

I suppose that those clouds were installed in my PC when I selected all options from menu and it can be checked in the clouds tab where it says "Currently In Sim".

I also suppose that Prepar uses different clouds (with REX clouds installed uses more variety) depending on what AS requires corresponding with metar given.

I don't get the "Sync thing" because as I have said before, I am not an expert, but if the sim by default with no clouds installed and with one basic weather engine running (no new clouds added) is capable to use different clouds depending on weather conditions, I suppose that with more clouds installed it will do the same so we'll see new clouds during the flight.

REX Texture direct does the same about installing new textures and sounds to be used by the sim. Even closed after installing themes, sim uses them depending on scenario. If it rains, the texture used for runway is different than the one used if the runway is dry. So REX Sky force should do the same for the clouds.

Apart from this, I really don't understand what Sync Mode does. I don't say that is not working, I don't say that someone is lying and I don't say that is not new.

But I do say that I don't see differences. 

 

Inigo,

People don't see the difference from SF from ASCA. Your talking about sky textures, sync is more about the new cloud structure system that's a totally different thing.

I will try to explain. Given a "normal" flight with "normal" weather the weather depiction from when I used ASCA (rex soft clouds) to now using SF is not a lot different. So I could easy say like you that I see different clouds textures but it seems to make no difference if its open or closed.

But that is not the case when the weather is not normal. Until I used SF large structures were not large structures, it was lots of smaller clouds lumped together to make a bigger structure. With SF cloud structures I now see when called for.....when called for, I see huge cloud structures I've never seen before like this perfect example below.

SF is about cloud structures. The textures and placed onto them. You can turn of AS and SF and use the default weather engine and you will still see nice cloud textures but you're totally missing the point. 

SF is all about structures. You seeing different cloud textures is no more than you get with any texture set, J got different looking clouds with just 1 cloud texture. J told us all that why buy SF when my free cloud texture looks just as good...yes he said that!

This is what SF is about to me and it's not something you see ever flight.

 

 

30 minutes ago, Nyxx said:

You say people don't need to have SF open, You say with default structures and with ASCA installed its adding even more structures. So some were on my SSD I have a ton of structures there by default and because I installed ASCA even though I have only used it for sky colours running though ASCA, P3D is now using all of ASCA cloud structures as well as the default ones.

No, I am not saying that. All cloud structures (default or ASCA or SF) are copied into the P3D/Weather/Clouds folder. Depending on which addon you use and enable a file will be copied into that folder which is called CloudArtFiles.xml. If you use SF that file will start with this text:

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<!-- XML file for locating cloud art files. Created by REX Studio: Sky Force 3d 2017 -->

and then the sim will use ALL cloud files which are available in the clouds folder. If you use ASCA the text will be different and only the ASCA structures will be used. And if you use the default xml only the default structures will be used. Since the xm; that is currently in my clouds folder is from Sky Force all Sky Force structures will be used even with SF not running. P3D always 'looks' at that CloudArtFiles.xml to figure out which structures to use and it doesn't care if SF is running or not. P3D has no other choice than to use the SF structures as long as the SF CloudArtFiles.xml is in that folder!

30 minutes ago, Nyxx said:

You're also saying that Rex are lying/misleading us to believe that we need SF open to be able to use there new cloud and structures engine. Can you please enlighten us with why you think Rex would say that and not simply say."Just install SF close it down and your good to go!"

Because HiFi came up with ASCA which has a genuine dynamic mode: a day after the release of ASCA REX announced they would release a dynamic product too because they didn't want to get left behind. So they came up with Cloud sync.

I may be crossing a line you may not wish to cross, well, I see no reason to NOT do so. And am simply sharing my thoughts on this. Why should I not say what I think about this? I see no crime in this. I am not accusing REX of lying, I am simply saying what I see and think, which, if you like it or not, is another thing.

27 minutes ago, Xiropillo said:

I suppose that those clouds were installed in my PC when I selected all options from menu and it can be checked in the clouds tab where it says "Currently In Sim".

I also suppose that Prepar uses different clouds (with REX clouds installed uses more variety) depending on what AS requires corresponding with metar given.

Correct. In fact, those structures are installed into P3D as soon as you install SF. If you open SF and go to the 3D cloud structure page you will see a button called INSTALL NOW. That button does NOT install any structures into P3D (and certainly not 1506 as is stated underneath that button: there are 1160 structures): it only copies SF's own CloudArtFiles.xml into the clouds folder (overwriting any other CloudArtFiles.xml which may be there, like the default one or the one from ASCA) which ENABLES the structures for the sim. That's it. And after that the structures will be there in P3D, ready to be used by any weather system, if you keep SF running or not.

And btw Currenly in sim only shows the TEXTURES that are currently installed into the sim: this has nothing to do with the structures.

4 minutes ago, Nyxx said:

SF is all about structures. You seeing different cloud textures is no more than you get with any texture set, J got different looking clouds with just 1 cloud texture.

This is what SF is about to me and it's not something you see ever flight.

Agreed. SF is all about the structures although I have to say I also like the SF textures...! A lot more than the ASCA ones. So they also make a noticable difference. But the most important part of SF are the structures.

26 minutes ago, J van E said:

I am not accusing REX of lying, I am simply saying what I see and think, which, if you like it or not, is another thing.

Rex Developers have said we need SF open and sync ON, even with other weather engine,

You say we don't, so dress it up how you like J your saying there lying. If you one day prove they are, then full credit to you. Like i've said I see now reason why they should say we do when they could of so easy of said there is no need to keep SF open. 

Since we might know be going round in circles best to like we have done before on SF leave it here.

Just a thought: Could it be that the reason why REX SF3D has to remain open during a flight is because the receipt of data from ASP4 is triggering changes, executed by REX SF3D, of the content of CloudArtFiles.xml? This change reflects (syncs with?) the current weather state and, accordingly, will be used by P3D to pull the appropriate cloud structures into the sim.

I admit I have little clue how all this works but, like Jeroen, just thinking aloud!

Perhaps comparisons of the content of this file should be made at various points during a flight. If I’m barking up the wrong tree then said content will remain static throughout.

Another thought: We are aware that REX SF3D has introduced enormous potential for portraying a huge variety of cloud structures in the sim which reflect, more accurately than ever before, dynamic real weather conditions. How can it achieve this without overriding the existing specific P3D coded capability? Does this not imply that REX SF3D has to be running to enable this enhanced ‘syncing’ of P3D with a weather engine such as ASP4?

Regards,

Mike

 

 

40 minutes ago, Cruachan said:

If I’m barking up the wrong tree then said content will remain static throughout.

It remains static.

 

40 minutes ago, Cruachan said:

How can it achieve this without overriding the existing specific P3D coded capability? Does this not imply that REX SF3D has to be running to enable this enhanced ‘syncing’ of P3D with a weather engine such as ASP4?

No, because the structures are called upon by the weather (engine), not SF. SF knows nothing about the weather in the sim when you are using for instance the AS weather engine. The xml file contains all the information P3D/AS needs to call and load the correct cloud structure. SF simply adds a lot more variation for P3D/AS to play with.

1 hour ago, Nyxx said:

Like i've said I see now reason why they should say we do when they could of so easy of said there is no need to keep SF open. 

Since we might know be going round in circles best to like we have done before on SF leave it here.

I also see no reason why they say that LOL (well, apart from marketing reasons).

And I agree with the latter. Unless someone else has another question, of course. 

Hi Jeroen,

Yes, you are correct regarding the CloudArtFiles.xml file. When REX SF3D is run and a selection or Theme is installed into P3D, it overwrites this file which is present in the Prepar3D v4\Weather\clouds folder. This file (which is identical to the one found in REX Sky Force for Prepar3D v4\models folder) is substantially larger than the Prepar3D default and also, in my installation, the file with the previously installed ASCA cloud model location descriptions. CloudArtFiles.xml now contains info data lines (>1500 entries) that define the location of each of the unique REX SF3D cloud art .CLD files. Or, as you said, it contains all the info needed to call and load the correct cloud structures. All the file references within this .xml file have .CLD file extensions as do the actual files in the REX Sky Force for Prepar3D v4\models\P3D\Models folder. 

Cloud textures are contained in REX Sky Force 3D for Prepar3D v4 root.

Ultimately this 'synchronization', as defined by REX, will be determined by data generated by the Weather engine currently in use and running alongside P3D. So why, as REX have stated, is it necessary to keep REX SF3D running in the background since it appears to have accomplished its primary task of bringing the REX CloudArtFiles.xml file into play?

Now, for me, the question is which application has been tasked with the actual injection of these new cloud structures.? Logically you would think that REX SF 3D has to be involved at some point since neither P3D or the chosen 3rd party weather engine will be aware of these new structures unless somehow this is all being handled via the CloudArtFiles.xml file in the same way P3D recognizes add-ons with an associated add-on.xml component. REX have stated, and I quote:

"The weather engine reads and interprets live model data to sample the atmosphere and therefore will sync the appropriate clouds structures, allowing for more accuracy.

Also, "Incorporating synchronization technology which dynamically syncs 3D cloud model structures in real-time during flight."

My assumption is that the second line is referring to the REX SF3D in-house Weather engine. That being the case, then should we not conclude that the dynamic syncing of 3D cloud model structures in real-time during flight will not occur since most of us have disabled the REX SF weather engine in favour of ASP4? Yet, what we are seeing suggests that in fact syncing the appropriate REX SF3D cloud structures with the local metar data from ASP4 is still occurring. So, unless my reasoning is flawed, that only leaves REX SF3D as being the responsible agent. This seems to be true as I believe REX are stating we should be running REX SF3D alongside our preferred weather engine and P3D for as long as we wish to utilize dynamic synchronization of their library of cloud models (structures) with changing real world weather conditions. This all sounds very familiar as I think ASCA, with Full Dynamics enabled, works in a similar fashion. The difference, of course, is that REX SF3D offers a much more comprehensive and convincing library of cloud models.

Regards,

Mike

 

14 hours ago, J van E said:

It remains static.

 

No, because the structures are called upon by the weather (engine), not SF. SF knows nothing about the weather in the sim when you are using for instance the AS weather engine. The xml file contains all the information P3D/AS needs to call and load the correct cloud structure. SF simply adds a lot more variation for P3D/AS to play with.

I also see no reason why they say that LOL (well, apart from marketing reasons).

And I agree with the latter. Unless someone else has another question, of course. 

Dont now  if  you have  been  at the  rex  forum lately   since  the  same  question has  been  raised   about this  and  the  same  answer  has  always  been the  same  leave  sf  open.  

5 hours ago, Cruachan said:

This all sounds very familiar as I think ASCA, with Full Dynamics enabled, works in a similar fashion.

Completely different Mike.  Others select clouds from the sets defined on startup of the sim - the clouds change in real time as determined by the weather engine. has ASCA not only does this BUT it changes the sets defined WHILE the sim is running and then the weather engine has another set of clouds to choose from that are different from the original. All the weather programs sync the clouds, etc - that is not the dynamic changes that ASCA performs.

Vic

21 hours ago, J van E said:

That's it. And after that the structures will be there in P3D, ready to be used by any weather system, if you keep SF running or not

I agree with you, I see no evidence that SF manipulates cloud models on the fly to match wx conditions. The cloud models are in the sim and static from runtime, they get used by whatever program is calling cloud types. 

To back this up, when flying in the UK I am seeing CBs punching through to 50k in winter, this with SF running in the background. If it were true that SF alters models dynamically, then surely we would have CB tops based on the users AC latitude. We would not be presented with a hard choice of either 50k models or 75k. For me this is evidence that REx are not altering any models on the fly because the values in the CB model need to be set before runtime, or else this tropopause limit would easily be modeled. I posted the question on their forum but got no answer

I have also seen tornadoes at FL300 over TNCM with AS4 and SF running?! I have since disabled the tornado model

REX tell us that any wx program can use their models, therefore there is nothing unique about the SF wx engine and the cloud models it provides

 

I will say that the models are great and have improved my sim positively 

6 hours ago, pete_auau said:

Dont now  if  you have  been  at the  rex  forum lately   since  the  same  question has  been  raised   about this  and  the  same  answer  has  always  been the  same  leave  sf  open.  

Hi Pete,

Thanks, I’ve added a request for further clarification to that thread. Not sure how they will respond without revealing exactly how the dynamic syncing of cloud model structures is accomplished by Sky Force 3D.

Regards,

Mike