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rennman

No flare with auto land

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Hi...I have vor/loc and app engaged...she flies the ILS approach the whole way perfectly, but does not flare...What am I missing?

Edited by rennman

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1 hour ago, rennman said:

I have vor/loc and app engaged

This isn't necessary, like most simmers claim: if you don't need to use LOC for some reason (the controller is asking you to intercept the LOC, but you are not yet cleared for the approach), then go directly to APP. This could actually be the cause of your issue.

1 hour ago, rennman said:

she flies the ILS approach the whole way perfectly, but does not flare...What am I missing?

Might be your timing. See above. To be clear, you're actually flying an ILS and not some other kind of approach, yes?

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Was "Land 3" showing at the top of your PFD? If not then you most likely were flying the Ils in a degraded mode which means the aircraft will not automatically flare.

You may have had a random failure active which caused this on approach.

Were you on a precision Ils approach or a non precision Localizer approach? If I recall correctly a localizer app will not give you full autoland functionality. You should have "LOC" and " GS" showing at the top of your pfd if the aircraft is tracking the signals.

Regards!

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The FMA should indicate flare in small white letters before landing, meaning that the flare mode is armed and ready.  Also, the flare in the 777 is much less of an event than in some other aircraft.  May I also advise that you fly the tutorial if not already and not rely on autoland (it is rarely used real world).

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Did you set the radio barometer to 50?   

I am an admitted amateur 777 pilot, but on my SUCCESSFUL autolands, I've always set that to 50, just like we did in the tutorial.  I still have to read up on the function of it.

I suppose it's possible that without the radio baro set to 50, the aircraft won't know when to flare.  Just a guess...

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1 hour ago, Mace said:

Did you set the radio barometer to 50?   

This has nothing to do with anything related to autoland, for what it's worth. All it does is set the callout.

Radio altimiter, by the way.

Radio and barometer are two separate concepts related to determining altitude. Using both together would be like saying "wet dry."

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3 hours ago, scandinavian13 said:

This has nothing to do with anything related to autoland, for what it's worth. All it does is set the callout.

Radio altimiter, by the way.

Radio and barometer are two separate concepts related to determining altitude. Using both together would be like saying "wet dry."

Yes, altimeter.  Sorry.  Long day at work, brain fried.

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14 hours ago, scandinavian13 said:

This isn't necessary, like most simmers claim: if you don't need to use LOC for some reason (the controller is asking you to intercept the LOC, but you are not yet cleared for the approach), then go directly to APP. This could actually be the cause of your issue.

Might be your timing. See above. To be clear, you're actually flying an ILS and not some other kind of approach, yes?

Does your first part of advice only count for the 777?

As in, in the 737 you still (sometimes depending on config) do have to press loc first?

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Even if G/S capture is inhibited until LOC is captured, you can still press APP without first pressing LOC.

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3 hours ago, Victoroos said:

Does your first part of advice only count for the 777?

As in, in the 737 you still (sometimes depending on config) do have to press loc first?

No. In any case, you should use APP unless you have a specific reason to use LOC. This whole LOC-before-APP simmism needs to die a quick but painful death...

Do note that the post you quoted makes no reference to a specific aircraft, and only makes exception for a very specific case, using language related to case, not aircraft, nor anything else.

The specific case is as follows:
"Southwest 422, fly heading 360 to join the runway 33L localizer, maintain 4000." <HDG SEL: 360; LOC press; 4000 dialed in>
[Readback]
"Southwest 422, 3 miles from JANNS, maintain 4000 to JANNS, cleared ILS Runway 33L approach." <APP press>

The above is rarer and usually found in places where the minimum vectoring altitude is above the approach altitudes, such as in the case of ROA.

 

The usual case is the following:
"Lufthansa 418 heavy, 5 miles east of MOSBY, turn right heading 340, maintain 3000, cleared ILS Runway 1L approach." <HDG SEL: 340; APP press, yes, right to APP; 3000 dialed in>

Edited by scandinavian13
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2 hours ago, scandinavian13 said:

 This whole LOC-before-APP simmism needs to die a quick but painful death...

Like it - but I wonder if it would be more correct to express it as a 'simisissm'?

 

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4 hours ago, scandinavian13 said:

he usual case is the following:
"Lufthansa 418 heavy, 5 miles east of MOSBY, turn right heading 340, maintain 3000, cleared ILS Runway 1L approach."

Interesting, I'm used to hearing "until established" as in,  "turn right heading 340, maintain 3000 until established, cleared ILS Runway 1L approach."  I haven't looked at a 7110.8 in decades.  The established tells me to maintain altitude until I'm on the localizer, right?

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23 minutes ago, downscc said:

Interesting, I'm used to hearing "until established" as in,  "turn right heading 340, maintain 3000 until established, cleared ILS Runway 1L approach."  I haven't looked at a 7110.8 in decades.  The established tells me to maintain altitude until I'm on the localizer, right?

That's probably what it is, to the letter. Either way, that really isn't relevant to the point of the discussion:

Rare: TPAC: LOC -> APP
Common: PTAC: APP, and only app.

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1)

On 3/20/2018 at 11:05 AM, rennman said:

Hi...I have vor/loc and app engaged...she flies the ILS approach the whole way perfectly, but does not flare...What am I missing?

Hi Rennman,

What was your approach speed?  Is it possible the aircraft was very heavy and you were going too fast and therefore descending too fast for the aircraft to do a proper flare?

2)

6 hours ago, scandinavian13 said:

The specific case is as follows:
"Southwest 422, fly heading 360 to join the runway 33L localizer, maintain 4000." <HDG SEL: 360; LOC press; 4000 dialed in>
[Readback]
"Southwest 422, 3 miles from JANNS, maintain 4000 to JANNS, cleared ILS Runway 33L approach." <APP press>

The above is rarer and usually found in places where the minimum vectoring altitude is above the approach altitudes, such as in the case of ROA.

Hi Kyle,

I'm surprised that the pilot replies "cleared for ... approach" when the controller did not clear him/her. 

3)

A separate point about approaches: I prefer not to select APP (or LOC as the case may be) until I am very near intercepting the localizer path.  Sometimes when APP or LOC are armed before that point the aircraft will switch to LOC (GS still armed if APP was armed), turn sooner than I would like, and actually take longer to line up right on the localizer path than if I waited.  If in LNAV I will be ready to switch to Heading Select in the situation where LNAV causes the aircraft to turn parallel to the localizer path without intercepting.

Mike

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Mike777 said:

I'm surprised that the pilot replies "cleared for ... approach" when the controller did not clear him/her. 

You've misread it. None of that is spoken by the pilot. The pilot response is simply summarized by [readback] (note the lack of colon as a reference that the following lines were the readback). So...what you've mistaken for a "reply" is the clearance from the controller. Odd mistake given the obvious clearance format...

4 minutes ago, Mike777 said:

A separate point about approaches: I prefer not to select APP (or LOC as the case may be) until I am very near intercepting the localizer path.  Sometimes when APP or LOC are armed before that point the aircraft will switch to LOC (GS still armed if APP was armed), turn sooner than I would like, and actually take longer to line up right on the localizer path than if I waited.  If in LNAV I will be ready to switch to Heading Select in the situation where LNAV causes the aircraft to turn parallel to the localizer path without intercepting.

All up to you, honestly. This is a separate issue, however. You're referring to when to hit either. This thread is related to selecting LOC before APP.

...it's a bit like discussing red wine and white wine and diverting the discussion into when, exactly, one should open a red in order to let it properly breathe. We're still on red v white.

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2 minutes ago, scandinavian13 said:

 

...it's a bit like discussing red wine and white wine and diverting the discussion into when, exactly, one should open a red in order to let it properly breathe. We're still on red v white.

Open both dear boy!

But make sure you capture the one before you start on the other!

Then, sit back and enjoy the glide slope down!

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8 minutes ago, scandinavian13 said:

All up to you, honestly. This is a separate issue, however. You're referring to when to hit either. This thread is related to selecting LOC before APP.

...it's a bit like discussing red wine and white wine and diverting the discussion into when, exactly, one should open a red in order to let it properly breathe. We're still on red v white.

Actually, this thread was originally about why the O.P.'s aircraft isn't flaring.  I gave a suggestion for that issue that no-one else gave.  I also made it clear that I was addressing a different, but related issue.

 

11 minutes ago, scandinavian13 said:

Odd mistake given the obvious clearance format.

I'll let other readers of this thread judge how clear it is as to who was saying what.

Mike

 

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On 3/20/2018 at 1:53 PM, zsolt23 said:

 most likely were flying the Ils in a degraded mode

How do I determine and/or manipulate degraded mode?

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On 3/20/2018 at 2:16 PM, downscc said:

...meaning that the flare mode is armed and ready.

How do I arm flare mode?

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10 minutes ago, rennman said:

How do I determine and/or manipulate degraded mode?

If you don't see "Land 3" and you do see an EICAS message "No Autoland," the aircraft has detected that it is too fast, flaps are not sufficiently extended, or something else is not configured properly and you are too close to landing for it to be fixed.  You can either land manually, autopilot disconnected, or go around and try again

8 minutes ago, rennman said:

How do I arm flare mode?

You don't arm it, but it should show as armed (in white) on the FMA, at top of PFD, if everything is OK for an autoland.  I don't recall off hand at what point it will show, but I would be surprised if it didn't show as you get near touchdown, if you have "Land 3" and still have the autopilot engaged.

Mike

Edited by Mike777

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On 3/20/2018 at 11:05 AM, rennman said:

Hi...I have vor/loc and app engaged...she flies the ILS approach the whole way perfectly, but does not flare...What am I missing?

This question may have gotten lost in all the replies, so I'll ask again:  How fast were you going on final and how heavy was the aircraft?  For a given glideslope, the faster the plane goes, the faster it descends.  Since I'm sure inertia is modeled correctly, it might have too much inertia to flare, which = slow the descent.  Also if the plane is very heavy, it might have too much inertia to slow the descent properly.

Mike

Edited by Mike777

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On 3/20/2018 at 11:05 AM, rennman said:

Hi...I have vor/loc and app engaged...she flies the ILS approach the whole way perfectly, but does not flare...What am I missing?

You might want to take a look at FCOM V2, page 4.20.13, pdf page 329

Mike

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14 hours ago, scandinavian13 said:

No. In any case, you should use APP unless you have a specific reason to use LOC. This whole LOC-before-APP simmism needs to die a quick but painful death...

Do note that the post you quoted makes no reference to a specific aircraft, and only makes exception for a very specific case, using language related to case, not aircraft, nor anything else.

The specific case is as follows:
"Southwest 422, fly heading 360 to join the runway 33L localizer, maintain 4000." <HDG SEL: 360; LOC press; 4000 dialed in>
[Readback]
"Southwest 422, 3 miles from JANNS, maintain 4000 to JANNS, cleared ILS Runway 33L approach." <APP press>

The above is rarer and usually found in places where the minimum vectoring altitude is above the approach altitudes, such as in the case of ROA.

 

The usual case is the following:
"Lufthansa 418 heavy, 5 miles east of MOSBY, turn right heading 340, maintain 3000, cleared ILS Runway 1L approach." <HDG SEL: 340; APP press, yes, right to APP; 3000 dialed in>

The first situation you typed out happens quite a bit at ORD. 

I get instructions to intercept the localizer well before I'm actually ever given an explicit approach clearance...especially when they are doing long finals and keeping guys down quite a bit ways out.

By the way, last I assumed....you worked with the FAA...Do you get jumpseat privileges or no?

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14 hours ago, ahsmatt7 said:

By the way, last I assumed....you worked with the FAA...Do you get jumpseat privileges or no?

No jumpseats for me.

It was mostly work out at the Command Center / TRACON, so I spent my day around controllers and traffic managers, and would occasionally get out onto the floor to observe and listen in (a bunch of my friends are now controllers, too). Moved more into HQ work for a few years before dropping it entirely (still contracting, just not with the FAA).

I was also in PUBNATs 8 and 9, so I spent a ton of time studying the .65, and controlling on VATSIM in an effort to get a leg up on people when I got to the academy.

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2 hours ago, scandinavian13 said:

No jumpseats for me.

It was mostly work out at the Command Center / TRACON, so I spent my day around controllers and traffic managers, and would occasionally get out onto the floor to observe and listen in (a bunch of my friends are now controllers, too). Moved more into HQ work for a few years before dropping it entirely (still contracting, just not with the FAA).

I was also in PUBNATs 8 and 9, so I spent a ton of time studying the .65, and controlling on VATSIM in an effort to get a leg up on people when I got to the academy.

My wife is at ZAU. So did you actually go through the academy? I remember when my wife went through it......it sucked the worst ever.

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