[13JUN18] XPlane User Updates

[GCBraun]

As I mentioned previously, I think that this survey, more than an absolute truth, shows a trend. If you compare with the surveys of the previous years, this trend, namely XP`s growth, is quite clear. This is also validated by other developer`s remarks and by third-party statistics.

 

[Best]

The only survey PMDG will believe is their own survey. It is clear XP is growing significantly. I've had every PMDG aircraft except for the 747-8 because I switched to XP and never looking back.

[scandinavian13]

56 minutes ago, Best said:

The only survey PMDG will believe is their own survey. It is clear XP is growing significantly. I've had every PMDG aircraft except for the 747-8 because I switched to XP and never looking back.

This is the reason that the XPL community bothers me to no end.

If one doesn’t fully subscribe to the idea that XPL is the 100% clear future, you are cast aside, and people like to strawman you to death.

Not only is this false - our survey would naturally skew towards our existing FSX/P3D base, giving us biased data - it also ignores the fact that: 1. We actually look at data from a number of sources; and 2. A business is in the business of making money, so ignoring a growing/larger audience would be a stupid move, so...

I get that a lot of you have this weird emotional investment in your sim of choice, but when it comes to statistics and facts, emotions take a back seat. If someone criticizes your choice of stats because of a potentially flawed stat model, push back with facts instead of baseless accusations. The only thing worse than stats with a weak study design is a bunch of ad hom and logical fallacy.

Come on...

[GCBraun]

14 minutes ago, scandinavian13 said:

This is the reason that the XPL community bothers me to no end.

This perceived problem is not one exclusive of the XP folks. Similar behavior is seen in any sort of interest-based human groups, including in the P3D community. It just happens to bother you because XP is not your’s or PMDG’s favorite sim.

 

[Adrian123]

Lord, all one has to do is look which forum this discussion is in. Of course there is bias. I for one could care less if DPGM or Narecardo or whoever it is does whatever.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, GCBraun said:

This perceived problem is not one exclusive of the XP folks. Similar behavior

I’ll disagree with you there, it very much is “almost” exclusively XP community ... not just here but I see this XP fanatism everywhere, especially YouTube.  They’ll come and toss out childish comments on my P3D videos just because it’s not XP. I’m sure there are some P3D fanatics also, but 10x more XPers attacking devs and end users.

But are you really trying tell PMDG how they are supposed to interpret a Navigraph survey they didn’t sponsor?

But ask yourself why are you telling devs what platforms they need to develop for??  That an admission of platform weakness ... the merit of the platforms and users wallets will decide.

Cheers, Rob.

[BlueStar]

2 hours ago, Best said:

It is clear XP is growing significantly

Do you have an empirical data to support this statement?  If so it would be greatly appreciated if you would share that data and your sources. 🙂

Grace and Peace, 

[scandinavian13]

5 hours ago, GCBraun said:

This perceived problem is not one exclusive of the XP folks. Similar behavior is seen in any sort of interest-based human groups, including in the P3D community. It just happens to bother you because XP is not your’s or PMDG’s favorite sim.

Firstly: I keep seeing people say "PMDG's favorite sim" or allusions to that concept. We don't have one. This is a business. There aren't any favorites in business. There are business decisions for business reasons.

 

...but I'm with Ainscough.

I won't tell you that the P3D or FSX community is perfect. Fans of each sim will toss grenades at each other, clinging to the particular strength of that sim, and they all certainly have strengths, regardless of which one has more than another. All the same, the most vitriolic and/or impassioned responses I've seen have come from XPL groups.

I don't really have a favorite sim, either, honestly. One of my favorite sims is one we don't even develop for: DCS. I will spend hour upon hour in that sim just blowing stuff up in VR, and lose track of time entirely. I actually had FSX, FSX:SE, P3D (current version), XPL, Flight School, Flight Sim World, and DCS installed on my computer and I used ALL of them. Flight School got removed in favor of FSW, when that was still a thing, until they gave up on it. I didn't really like their model, and as RSR posted publicly a while back, we saw that coming. All the same, I was saddened to see it go. It was an option with some neat content for the GA community that's seemingly slowly dying off here (the States). Did I like it? No. Did I want it to go away? Not at all.  I want the entire community to do well. Much like the airline industry, the flying public doesn't do as well when we have fewer carriers. Similarly, having more than one good sim is in the best interest of everyone...so it would follow that XPL doing well is in the best interests of everyone, not to mention all of the other sims that seem to be taking hold (to a degree, anyway). I want XPL to do well. I really do. I want other-than-XPL to do well, too.

My problem is that I feel XPL has been largely ignored for so long that, now that the proponents have a foothold, I feel like those groups are in this backwards evangelical mode. It's less "I see your objections, but let me explain," and more "if you don't accept our sim, then you're stupid - this is the way of the future." I really do actually like the sim. There's literal interweb proof of me actually nerding out at the fact that the detailed XPL mesh I was flying over was all free. A lot of the other add-ons I threw in were also free (which I was also nerding out about). But as soon as I question the unquestionable superiority of that sim - in any way - out come the pitchforks. Again, much like a said earlier, people (and I have yet to find anyone outside of the XPL proponent group who do this) strawman me (and usually by extension, PMDG) to death on this topic. I do not hate XPL. I have frustrations with it, but I have frustrations with FSX and P3D, too. My frustrations usually stem from my interactions with the community and less with the sim itself, honestly, and it's mostly driven by my "hey, I'm not sure I fully believe X and Y." Let's be real. Have any of you seen me behave in any way, on any topic, where I simply say "I will accept what you've provided without question?" My literal default mode is to question but verify, based on stats and facts available.

BAM. Any person I announce this hesitancy to in the XPL community:

"You simply hate XPL, which is why you feel this way. You just want to confirm your own bias!" (Multiple people in this thread, in fact.)
No. I just think your stats are flawed.
*provides no actual statistical source with an associated data model* "You're wrong. The community is [significant/growing/etc]. You simply prefer something else."

At that point, there's really no point in arguing, I often walk the line of:
Okay fine. Since you can read my mind better than I can, I guess I hate the sim that I don't hate because you're saying I do.
(To add a little psych 101 here: best way to make an enemy of something? Accuse them of something they don't actually believe or do, and beat them into submission on it.)

 

 

I have literally stated multiple times now that I have found a particular data set to be questionable. I did not say it was wrong. The heaps of XPL respondents tells us something. All the same, without a robust design, it's subject to all kinds of statistical biases. This is not sound study design, but I don't think it was meant to be. That in mind, while it's neat, and certainly shows that the XPL community showed up en masse, I wouldn't call it something one could reliably say "the proportionality of the audience in this study accurately reflects the proportionality of the entire sim community."

This is a really simple concept guys, and one I have no emotional investment in. ECON and STAT 101. My arguments are simply ECON and STAT 101 discussions, adapted to the sim community here. If you're upset by this, then you might want to have a look at why. If your gut reaction is to accuse me of an emotional argument when simply falling back on ECON and STAT 101, again, you may want to have a look at why.

 

As I final note, I will offer you the following. This guy literally thinks airplanes are fake because he took measurements that are so flawed, you'll laugh. If I were to question him about his methods, would I be making this argument because I'm emotionally invested in airplanes being real, or because we have actual ways of measuring better than studies based on flawed models. Are simple models okay? Yeah. Look at that scene in Apollo 13 where they needed 3' of duct tape, and said "just use your arm - about an arm's length." It got the job done for that situation. Similarly, when precision was needed, a calculation error buried one of our first probes into the Martian surface, instead of landing it softly.

Now, I'm not saying XPL arguments are as absolutely hilarious as this guy's insanity, but I do want to illustrate that someone can criticize a clearly flawed method by noting its flaws without my recognition of them being emotionally tied (now, prepare yourselves...seriously...and despite the seriousness of this discussion, I hope you all get a good bit of a laugh...also note the video title versus the thumbnail image...need I say more?):

 

[scandinavian13]

...and before someone claims this guy is joking, check out his channel. It's full of this stuff:

 

[Keith_S]

Fair enough, thank you Kyle for your comprehensive and well reasoned response.

There are undoubtedly issues on both sides, P3D is criticised for it's poor UI, flat runways and 'on-rails' air physics, while XP has poor ground physics, thread restrictions and limited developer API.

I'm still curious to know what is preventing further active XP development from PMDG however. Is it an issue of resource, API restrictions or perceived limited market share?

The trend indicated by the Navigraph survey is certainly interesting and I'd very much hope to see a PMDG liner for XP within the next couple of years, which I (and I'm sure many others) would readily purchase.

.

[Brian_A_Neuman]

23 minutes ago, Keith_S said:

Fair enough, thank you Kyle for your comprehensive and well reasoned response.

There are undoubtedly issues on both sides, P3D is criticised for it's poor UI, flat runways and 'on-rails' air physics, while XP has poor ground physics, thread restrictions and limited developer API.

I'm still curious to know what is preventing further active XP development from PMDG however. Is it an issue of resource, API restrictions or perceived limited market share?

The trend indicated by the Navigraph survey is certainly interesting and I'd very much hope to see a PMDG liner for XP within the next couple of years, which I (and I'm sure many others) would readily purchase.

.

I found the Navigraph survey interesting, and it certainly shed light on what simmers are using...for those who actually took the survey, which is a sampling of the community and not all encompassing. Not to suggest that it might not be accurate, but it does not necessarily paint an entire picture.

 

Now if it does paint an accurate picture, and lets for the sake of simplicity, say that if FS9/FSX/P3D (32 bit versions) all the sudden dropped off the face of the earth and they stayed with what is essentially the same style platform (P3D V4), the disparity between the users of the 2 sims would be tilted way towards P3D.

Lastly, with this nonstop debate, there is in fact room for both sims. P3D has made major strides over the earlier 32 bit versions and XPL is making its own advancements. I use P3D because I like the interface more, I am a stubborn old simmer and my investment into P3D. I guess XPL has its own developers, and based on the nonstop argument that XPL is better, why do you need all the addons? The arguments state that the only reason P3D is good is because of the addons, is XPL heading the same way? Its contradictory in my opinion.

And this is a tired argument. Coke vs Pepsi, Ford vs Chevy, Boeing vs Airbus, P3D vs XPL. All have their good points and bad, and all will exist into the future, whether you want them too or not. Please note this is not directed specifically at you Keith, but a general statement.

[GCBraun]

If I were a developer, I would be happy that people come to my forum and suggesting that I should look into other platforms as well. It is just a statement of the quality of PMDG´s addons.

Currently XP has made significant advancements in multiple areas that are inherent to the sim such as graphic effects, flight dynamics, VR, etc. The 3rd. party add-on ecosystem is also thriving. Now we have decent weather (with ActiveSky), ATC (with Pilot2ATC), Traffic (with WorldTraffic 3) and an extensive list of qualify freeware content.

The only thing missing, in my opinion, are good long-haul jets, so it is obvious that part of the growing XP community would come to here and wonder if PMDG would ever support the platform.

Personally, I am not even suggesting that! I would be happy just with an upgrade to the DC-6, so that I can fully use it in XP11, which was released months after the old-bird came out!

In any case, I will keep enjoying both platforms. Hope you do as well, if your wallets allow, as there are great things about both simulators. 

Wishing everyone a great start in 2019!

[Brian_A_Neuman]

9 hours ago, GCBraun said:

 

The only thing missing, in my opinion, are good long-haul jets, so it is obvious that part of the growing XP community would come to here and wonder if PMDG would ever support the platform.

 

That is always a fair point. However, in a great many cases, and its not just here at PMDG but with multiple developers, its not the question the way you asked it, but its more aggressive along the lines of "Where is XPlane", "Cant you see X-Plane is the future", "You NEED to develop this for X-Plane" and simply "X-Plane?". When it is asked in the other manners, it comes across as trolling and demanding rather then "Have you ever considered developing this for X-Plane". IMHO thats where the arguments start.

[Guest]

15 hours ago, scandinavian13 said:

need I say more?

No, you demonstrated the mentality perfectly ... 

For those of you wanting to debate endlessly about P3D vs. XP ... how about this for an idea, buy P3D and PMDG aircraft and enjoy what that platform has to offer ... and here is the trick, continue using XP11 and enjoy what it has to offer ... problem solved.

I, like many others tire of endless corrections and inaccurate information about P3D and/or XP ... like Keith demonstrated above with his inaccurate statements about P3D ... there is nothing preventing sloped runways in P3D.  There are several P3D products that exists with sloped runways like LLH Creations Courchevel, Orbx EGPB Sumburgh, and many more ... the issue with sloped runways is that AI traffic make not work "as well" with them, and this can also be a problem for XP AI traffic.

As far as the Navigraph survey, as I suggested earlier, the interesting information I got was the majority of respondents were only spending $200/yr on FS products ... given the average 3D gamer/console user spends $2000/yr on products, it was a somewhat depressing statistic and I hope it's NOT representative of the entire FS community.

Cheers, Rob.

[Ephedrin]

21 minutes ago, Rob Ainscough said:

I, like many others tire of endless corrections and inaccurate information about P3D and/or XP

this.

21 minutes ago, Rob Ainscough said:

There are several P3D products that exists with sloped runways

already Aerosoft's Cusco has had one at FSX

23 minutes ago, Rob Ainscough said:

were only spending $200/yr on FS products

to be fair, I lied on this one, as simple as that. I gave my wish instead of the facts. The fact is that I prefer not to know it. 

 

Just start having fun everyone, eventually... We're all having a hobby, even the PMDG staff, who do this for a living, are simming out of passion.