4 hours ago, TechguyMaxC said:

What's important is that MSFS (2020) maintain "good performance" (e.g. consistent 33ms frame times or less) while providing superior visuals to existing sims. 

Flight sims are the only dinosaurs where the current user community considers 33ms/30fps good performance. If MFS target is going to be more extended (Xbox users, etc.) I think they're aiming for 60fps at least as a "good performance" target.

16 hours ago, Murmur said:

Flight sims are the only dinosaurs where the current user community considers 33ms/30fps good performance. If MFS target is going to be more extended (Xbox users, etc.) I think they're aiming for 60fps at least as a "good performance" target.

It has nothing to do with being a dinosaur and everything to do with rate of change on screen.  If you're flying a commercial airliner at FL350 those pixels on the ground don't need to be updated at the same rate as if you're playing a fast-twitch shooter like Doom where on-screen objects are mere feet from the player character's model/camera.

Edited September 17, 20196 yr by TechguyMaxC

4 minutes ago, TechguyMaxC said:

If you're flying a commercial airliner at FL350 those pixels on the ground don't need to be updated at the same rate as if you're playing a fast-twitch shooter like Doom where on-screen objects are mere feet from the player character's model/camera.

But the flightsim where you can cruise along at FL350 is the same simulator which needs a high frame rate at low altitudes for aerobatics and roll rates  in excess of 360deg/sec (if MS fundamentally changes the FDEs) 

15 minutes ago, FDEdev said:

But the flightsim where you can cruise along at FL350 is the same simulator which needs a high frame rate at low altitudes for aerobatics and roll rates  in excess of 360deg/sec (if MS fundamentally changes the FDEs) 

Rate of change is measurable and no scenario in a flight simulator (aside from a roll pointed straight at the ground) can produce the rate of change necessary to require frame times similar to a first person shooter.  I don't know many people that use the sim in this manner.  Are we going to define requirements around corner cases?

Edited September 17, 20196 yr by TechguyMaxC

6 minutes ago, TechguyMaxC said:

...aside from a roll pointed straight at the ground...

I don't know many people that use the sim in this manner.

Erm, that's exactly what happens during aerobatics.  Straight down and roll at e.g. 420deg/sec...

And why do you think MS included an aerobatic plane?

Edited September 17, 20196 yr by FDEdev

Tired of Single Core Blues in flight sim. They must saturate GPU deep, as much as possible. Cpu cores should work in parrallel. Wake up the CPUs. Make them All work.

The scenery loading must be optimized to prefetch as much as possible, early, in Ram before moving to Vram (fast). And this in a separate thread. Use the Ram, use threads, no stutters or frame rate drops because of scenery loading. Do things right Microsoft.

Edit: also there should be a config setting for Maximum Ram usage. FS should take advantage of all of that, so as memory increases in future 64, 128, 256gb, the Maximum memory can increase.

Edited September 17, 20196 yr by Greazer

12 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

...if you're a jet fighter kinda pilot and fly 500 KTs off the ground the ultimate 1:1 pixel motion ratio (pixel per meter) requires about 540 FPS when looking at 90 degrees sideways to direction of motion.

But this would apply only at an altitude of 0 feet or 0ft distance to a building or mountain side 😉

The higher you fly, the more things slow down and above 150ft everything is noticable slower, IRL and in a sim.

I'm flying all sims with at least 60fps and even during rapid aileron rolls there's no stutter.

Edited September 17, 20196 yr by FDEdev

1 hour ago, FDEdev said:

Erm, that's exactly what happens during aerobatics.  Straight down and roll at e.g. 420deg/sec...

And why do you think MS included an aerobatic plane?

Never in my life met a simmer that did aerobatics.

Corner case.

28 minutes ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

But with that said, Microsoft made a claim their next XBOX will run games in 8K UHD at 120 FPS.  I'm not aware of any 8K TVs (mainstream) that can operate at 120 FPS nor any data communication protocol (be it HDMI or DisplayPort) that can support 8K UHD 120 FPS data stream 'currently'.  We'll have to see when the XBOX is released holiday season 2020.

I haven't seen that specific claim from MS (8k resolution at 120 fps). They're very careful to mention those two specs separately in this promo video for Scarlett at around 1:32 into the clip:

https://www.xbox.com/en-US/project-scarlett

One female talking head says "Frame rates up to 120 frames per second," and then the video cuts to a male talking head saying "8k capability." Not linking the two directly, and I think that's on purpose. I could be wrong of course, but that's the inference I'm taking from the clip. Some of the more basic games may run at 120 fps at 4k, and really simple games at 8k. But I think the target for MSFS will probably be more like 60 fps at 4k.

FWIW, none of the brief in-game images they show towards the end of that video from Halo and other games are anything near as complex as what's shown in the MSFS trailer.

10 minutes ago, TechguyMaxC said:

Never in my life met a simmer that did aerobatics.

I don't know how many simmers you have met, but just must be living under a stone.

There are even virtual aerobatic championships, formation aerobatic teams etc....

Edited September 17, 20196 yr by FDEdev

Aerobatics are one area where I think Microsoft can capture some of the more casual users.

While I don't regularly fly that way, I have, on occasion.  

Also, I'm pretty opposed to fps-chasing.  If it's smooth and fluid, I'm good.  For aerobatics, especially, fluidity is needed.  The casual user will exit pretty quickly if it's choppy.

28 minutes ago, FDEdev said:

I don't know how many simmers you have met, but just must be living under a stone.

There are even virtual aerobatic championships, formation aerobatic teams etc....

Utter nonsense.  

Take a poll.  Guarantee the vast majority of flight simmers never/almost never engage in aerobatics in-sim.

I'm not talking about some kid with an XBox controller, I mean SIMMERS.  You know, the ACTUAL user-base of this product.

Edited September 17, 20196 yr by TechguyMaxC

20 minutes ago, TechguyMaxC said:

I'm not talking about some kid with an XBox controller, I mean SIMMERS.  You know, the ACTUAL user-base of this product.

You have clearly no idea what you are talking about. 

FYI the virtual aerobatics championship is being judged exactly the same way like real aerobatic contests (and by real judges) and it's as difficult to perform as a real one.

Flying straight and level on autopilot at FL330 for 10hrs has not much to do with FLIGHT simming.

Strange why all FS versions since 95 include aerobatic planes 😉

 

Edited September 17, 20196 yr by FDEdev

7 minutes ago, FDEdev said:

You have clearly no idea what you are talking about. 

FYI the virtual aerobatics championship is being judged exactly the same way like real aerobatic contests (and by real judges) and it's as difficult to perform as a real one.

Flying straight and level on autopilot at FL330 for 10hrs has not much to do with FLIGHT simming.

Strange why all FS versions since 95 include aerobatic planes 😉

 

If you're so confident you should be chomping at the bit to post a poll to prove me wrong.  Also, if you're a dev (as your username implies) and you just labeled the activities of the vast majority of users here as "not much to do with flight simming" prepare for the backlash.  

18 minutes ago, TechguyMaxC said:

I'm not talking about some kid with an XBox controller, I mean SIMMERS.  You know, the ACTUAL user-base of this product.

That's the point that I think you're missing.
There's a few hundred thousand simmers and then there's the millions of 'gamers' / kids with XBox controllers.

Both make up the target user-base, but numbers-wise, Microsoft would be daft to ignore that huge revenue stream by not making the new sim appealing to the widest audience possible - that means making it possible for the end user to pull aerobatic stunts around world-famous monuments and over their respective homes.

We're lucky that it's not going to be an either / or scenario. It appears that MS are catering to both the hard-core simmer and the 'let's take it for a spin' crowd (pardon the pun!)