September 26th Update - Feature Discovery Series Preview: World

[Paraffin 2,197]

5 hours ago, ErichB said:

XP users will not be sticking with XP.  Now that the flight modeling has been confirmed as being on par with the XP (which for the most part was the major differentiator) the playing field has shifted - significantly 

That's a pretty big leap of faith, considering the only thing we've seen so far regarding the quality of flight modeling is the Cessna stall and spin demo.

It's a good start, but we haven't seen high-speed stall buffet, in-flight icing, supersonic transition, or a helicopter-specific flight model. We haven't even seen a series of landings to see how well they're modeling ground effect. And there is more to a "flight model" than just aerodynamics. Will they have a turboprop engine model as good as the PT-6 in the current XP11? How good are the turbojet and high-bypass turbofan engines? Are they modeling all the fussy management necessary to keep an oil-spitting radial engine happy?

This isn't a "my sim is better" post, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that it's been "confirmed" that the new MSFS flight modeling is on par with XP. Heck, maybe it's better! But they aren't showing anything but a tiny peek at the flight modeling so far.

I also don't think most people picked up XP for the flight modeling. There are other reasons like Mac/Linux support, very easy installation and backup, no real need for endless tweaking to get good performance. I expect the new MSFS to match those things as a modern product, but the flight model and engine/systems modeling still has to be proven.

[ErichB 3,643]

Just now, Paraffin said:

That's a pretty big leap of faith, considering the only thing we've seen so far regarding the quality of flight modeling is the Cessna stall and spin demo.

It's a good start, but we haven't seen high-speed stall buffet, in-flight icing, supersonic transition, or a helicopter-specific flight model. We haven't even seen a series of landings to see how well they're modeling ground effect. And there is more to a "flight model" than just aerodynamics. Will they have a turboprop engine model as good as the PT-6 in the current XP11? How good are the turbojet and high-bypass turbofan engines? Are they modeling all the fussy management necessary to keep an oil-spitting radial engine happy?

This isn't a "my sim is better" post, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that it's been "confirmed" that the new MSFS flight modeling is on par with XP. Heck, maybe it's better! But they aren't showing anything but a tiny peek at the flight modeling so far.

I also don't think most people picked up XP for the flight modeling. There are other reasons like Mac/Linux support, very easy installation and backup, no real need for endless tweaking to get good performance. I expect the new MSFS to match those things as a modern product, but the flight model and engine/systems modeling still has to be proven.

FSElite has a video out this afternoon (in 12 minutes from this post actually) which discusses Aerodynamics with the MS dev team.  That should tell us all we need to know.

[F737MAX 5,616]

21 minutes ago, ErichB said:

Now it has no unique selling point.   It's just another plausible world sim.

We agree on this.

25 minutes ago, ErichB said:

People will also opt for free stuff yes.  But that isn't exactly a glowing endorsement for the sim itself..

No glowing endorsement of the sim as there are plenty of complaints regarding XP and where it is lacking. Comments on various social media sites will attest to that and don't need repeating here.

Free stuff is a huge driver, especially for younger, often less cash-rich simmers.
 

20 minutes ago, Krakin said:

Also it looks like they've used a lot more legacy code than I thought so I was wrong about that.

I'm quite surprised by that admission by the team. I have frequently read coders claiming that it's easier to start from scratch than to try and manipulate someone else's work.
 

[ErichB 3,643]

34 minutes ago, Krakin said:

Also it looks like they've used a lot more legacy code than I thought so I was wrong about that.

The base sim is FSX, so it stands to reason that some remaining code will be in there.  But they appear to have stripped it to bare bones and started over.

Edited October 1, 2019 by ErichB

[LHookins 3,103]

24 minutes ago, F737NG said:

I have frequently read coders claiming that it's easier to start from scratch than to try and manipulate someone else's work.

Newer coders like to start from scratch.  Experienced coders know why you don't want to do that.  At some point in my career I realized I preferred the challenges of doing maintenance, but I still wrote things from scratch occasionally and was able to really stretch my wings.

Hook

[F737MAX 5,616]

3 minutes ago, LHookins said:

Newer coders like to start from scratch.  Experienced coders know why you don't want to do that.  At some point in my career I realized I preferred the challenges of doing maintenance, but I still wrote things from scratch occasionally and was able to really stretch my wings.

Masochist! 😄

Appreciate you giving a little insight.


Back on topic, where's this new aerodynamics video then?

[ErichB 3,643]

1 minute ago, F737NG said:

ack on topic, where's this new aerodynamics video then?

FSElite

[F737MAX 5,616]

Hmm... not masses of info on the FSElite YouTube video.

Use of legacy FSX code because although physics and systems had simplistic modelling, it could be built upon (as@LHookinsdescribed a few posts earlier) and extended. Entire re-write would have been complex and too time-consuming.

Reliance on visual and especially sound aspects to make up for the lack of force feedback.
I had hoped that implementing force feedback would then drive demand for affordable yokes, rather than Brunner-priced ones. Nothing on the horizon it seems.

The developer team invited an aerobatic pilot to test the sim. The pilot was able to recreate his real-world performance in the sim.
That must mean that the aerodynamics must be pretty good, right?

[Paraffin 2,197]

12 minutes ago, F737NG said:

The developer team invited an aerobatic pilot to test the sim. The pilot was able to recreate his real-world performance in the sim.
That must mean that the aerodynamics must be pretty good, right?

For that specific flight regime, yes!

Aerobatics in a light piston plane at altitude is not the entire flight regime that should be modeled in a sim. There is high speed stall, supersonic transition, in-flight icing, accurate density altitude, thermal lift for gliders, modeling of ground effect, hydrodynamics for takeoff and landing on water, response to turbulence, and the entire envelope of helicopter operations including retreating blade stall, VRS, mast bump, etc. And I've probably forgotten a few.

But yeah, that Cessna should be pretty good. 🙂 We just need a heck of a lot more than realistic modeling of a Cessna.

Edited October 1, 2019 by Paraffin

[F737MAX 5,616]

2 minutes ago, Paraffin said:

We just need a heck of a lot more than realistic modeling of a Cessna.

Well, yes...
I'd be a lot less interested if it was Cessna 172 or Mudry CAP 10 Simulator.

If they get round to it, I'd even chance my arm and take a [ugh] heli for a spin. 😄

[Noooch 1,084]

4 hours ago, rjfry said:

Check out the interview in the thread SDK Discussion for MSFS, season`s not planed but may come some time down the road not important according to the Dev`s summer texture only, this put`s it in direct competition  with LR XP but P3DV4 will be the only sim with seasonal scenery, I will not give up my season`s and my PMDG aircraft now I will take a pass on this now. 

PS 18mins in.

If seasons is your deal breaker so be it, I just can't understand that. 🙂

[vortex681 806]

1 hour ago, Noooch said:

If seasons is your deal breaker so be it, I just can't understand that. 🙂

I agree. There seems to be so much that you'd lose by avoiding the new sim just because it might not have seasons on release. Personally, and as much as I'd like seasons, I'd be quite happy to sacrifice them permanently to get what they seem to be offering here.

Edited October 1, 2019 by vortex681

[dtrjones 356]

On 9/29/2019 at 7:22 PM, Noooch said:

At 1:30 we can  clearly see a cloud on the mountain on the ortho tile, I hope they will fix that before they release the final product.

Also the water looks too flat to me, hope they will correct this as well...

 

I had to look at this twice to realise it wasn't MSFS2020!

[dtrjones 356]

10 hours ago, ErichB said:

XP users will not be sticking with XP.  Now that the flight modeling has been confirmed as being on par with the XP (which for the most part was the major differentiator) the playing field has shifted - significantly 

Well right now I would like to tell you that I have Orbx TrueEarth installed for the whole of the UK in X-Plane where I live and I love flying around that region with my Piper PA-38. The custom objects make a difference against the backdrop of satalite imagery and AI created autogen much like FS2020. I'm a casual simmer though and I don't have that many addon's for scenery or planes.

Bottom line for me is, I still get a lot of enjoyment out of X-Plane and I see no reason to remove this sim from my harddisk, so I imagine somebody more heavily invested in X-Plane would almost certainly persist with the planes and scenery they enjoy, it's still a great sim...

However I can't really be accountable once FS2020 drops, and well... I'd sure like to have that diskspace back...

[G-RFRY 1,712]

7 hours ago, Noooch said:

If seasons is your deal breaker so be it, I just can't understand that. 🙂

Most this forum has been about what people want in the new sim I understand that VR and what it is for some, but to remove something that's been in the sim for over 20years is no small thing to me just my opinion. 

Edited October 2, 2019 by rjfry