Jump to content

Sign in to follow this  
Cruachan

Be careful what you wish for: a cautionary note

Recommended Posts

6 hours ago, Rob_Ainscough said:

There was absolutely NO need for Microsoft to do this ... announcements 1-2 months prior (with a demo/trial/RC) to a "solid" release date would have exactly the same sales benefit for Microsoft while retaining a healthy support structure (development community).  

Poor Microsoft/Asobo.  The first time in flightsim history they doing the right thing and actively listen to the community and you want them to give the users a feature complete sim just to beta test for errors.

I very much prefer the new Microsoft/Asobo way!

Nobody wants another FLIGHT disaster.  

Edited by FDEdev
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post

I'd like to ask the question... has anyone seen any close ups of trees, houses, airports in this sim? I've been looking very carefully at some of the videos, and although the sim looks amazing while flying at, for example, a couple of thousand feet,  the few times I've been able to see a fairly close image of a house or area of trees, the resolution is pretty poor. Very similar to Google Earth if you get too close to such items in the 3D city mode. I think there will be plenty of opportunities for third party devs to continue their work with this platform, supplyinhg hi-res airports, sceneries and aircraft.

Edited by Rockliffe
  • Like 2
  • Upvote 2

Howard
P3DV4.5, MSFS2020, MSI Mag Z490 Tomahawk MB, i7-10700 CPU @ 4.8ghz, Nvidia RTX3090 GPU, 32gb RAM@3200Mhz, SSD/2Tb+SSD/500Gb+OS, Corsair 1000W PSU, Philips BDM4350UC 43" 4K IPS, MFG Crosswinds, TQ6 Throttle, PFC Yoke.



Banner_FS2Crew_Supporter.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
47 minutes ago, Rockliffe said:

I think there will be plenty of opportunities for third party devs to continue their work with this platform, supplyinhg hi-res airports, sceneries and aircraft.

This is what I been trying to say.. you can have "GENERIC" building autogen for airports, but with the latest requirements to build object with PBR is very diifcult and long to create individual buildings and airports layouts for every single airport in the world. No AI computer is going to help here..

Anyone that has attempted to create a 3D modesl with P3D, XP and even Unity using PBR will understand what I am saying..

S.

Edited by simbol
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

I genuinely don't understand this argument that MSFS has somehow been announced "suspiciously early." If anything, I was shocked when the news came out about it because it had been kept such a good secret for the roughly two years it had already been in serious development. Hell, the thing looked practically ready for release when we saw the first images!

I for one would find it a lot more suspicious if this thing was announced just before release, having been kept under tight wraps through its entire development lifecycle. That certainly wouldn't speak to confidence in the project or a desire to have a constructive back-and-forth relationship with the community. Instead, the way Microsoft/Asobo have announced it a year ahead of time shows both that they feel good about what they're going to offer and aren't afraid to build anticipation (because they're not afraid it'll be let down) and that they value community feedback and engagement.

In other words, they're actually doing this right. In my book, that's worthy of praise, not condemnation and vague, conspiratorial insinuations.

James

  • Like 2
  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post

Let us not have the debate being structured by trolls of two detestable varieties : those who want loudly FS20 to fail which is unthinkable after what we have seen so far in the teasers and those who want as loudly  the addon cottage industry to disappear which is also unthinkable knowing that it has made the hobby what it is now. 

The shot was fired early in June, you may regret it but nobody will change anything to it. And besides Raul , I have not heard any developer having released products on the market to complain, if I am not mistaken. I am sure that the sales are not very good these days but his colleagues are busy working, I suppose.

If we can change anything, it is not by talking at length on how Microsoft should have run then or should run its business now, including how they should run their testing ! Excuse me but I find it a little laughable.

3PD parties are important but there are not what a new sim is about. It is  mainly about a developer Asobo/MS and you and me, the users. We must voice what we would like to see in the new sim and so many things cannot be brought to the table but by 3PD. 

 

Edited by domkle
  • Like 1

Dominique

Simming since 1981 -  4770k@3.7 GHz with 16 GB of RAM and a 1080 with 8 GB VRAM running a 27" @ 2560*1440 - Warthog HOTAS - MFG pedals - MFS Standard version with Steam

 

Share this post


Link to post
34 minutes ago, domkle said:

And besides Raul , I have not heard any developer having released products on the market to complain, if I am not mistaken

I am not sure if I understand your comment. 

People love my product, you should see their reactions and reviews after using it and I feel honored to have had such impact on their simulation experience. That alone for me is a great success. Even if I had just 1 copy sold with that effect to someone life I would have been happy.

If I was here for the money I would be gone by now.. I am here for the passion of the hobby and every time a new person buys my product and express how much they love it, my passion gets ignited again.

Maybe I miss understood what you mean, English is not my first language. 

All my opinions here are based on real concerns f or this hobby from the other side of the coin, nothing more.

If I was you, I would be concerned why other developers are so silent.. It is not a good sign.. I do speak with many of them on a daily basis though 😉.

Regards,

Simbol 

 

Edited by simbol
  • Like 3
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
11 minutes ago, simbol said:

I am not sure if I understand your comment. 

People love my product, you should see their reactions and reviews after using it and I feel honored to have had such impact on their simulation experience. That alone for me is a great success. Even if I had just 1 copy sold with that effect to someone life I would have been happy.

If I was here for the money I would be gone by now.. I am here for the passion of the hobby and every time a new person buys my product and express how much they love it, my passion gets ignited again.

Maybe I miss understood what you mean, English is not my first language. 

All my opinions here are based on real concerns for another side of the coin for this hobby, nothing more.

If I was you, I would be concerned why other developers are so silent.. It is not a good sign.. I do speak with many of them on a daily basis though 😉.

Regards,

Simbol 

 

I didn't buy your product  but I am impressed by what you do ! I truly hope you will have some room to show your talent in the new sim. 

I’ve just stated a fact, maybe a little bluntly. I’ve not seen any other dev complaining. 

Should we (the users) be concerned ? Yes, we should be concerned to be positive and proposing ideas, features.... and to underline the importance of the 3PD dev. 

Your passion is very discernable , don’t you see the same when Asobo engineers tell us about their baby ?


 

Edited by domkle

Dominique

Simming since 1981 -  4770k@3.7 GHz with 16 GB of RAM and a 1080 with 8 GB VRAM running a 27" @ 2560*1440 - Warthog HOTAS - MFG pedals - MFS Standard version with Steam

 

Share this post


Link to post
4 minutes ago, domkle said:

I’ve just stated a fact, maybe a little bluntly. I’ve not seen any other dev complaining.

Well, I am not like other developers, I don't hide my head under the sand and hope for the best.. 😉. and by the way if you read the entire thread you will see other developers raising their concerns here too, which is way different from "complaining".

5 minutes ago, domkle said:

Your passion is very discernable

Ok.. ask people around about me first.. no point claiming things on my own behalf.

6 minutes ago, domkle said:

don’t you see the same when Asobo engineers tell us about their baby ?

So? that doesn't change what is happening to this hobby at the moment. The topic of this thread has nothing to do with that.. and I have never said I want MS to fail, why on earth that would be good for anyone?? however I explained the reality of the situation on many topics, it is what is happening... and I said it many times too, I understand and I accept what is going on. Is that complaining, really? 

But I do want to see and SDK and more involvement with 3rd party developers, why is it negative that me or others express these views? I think it is important.. and so do others.

S.

 

  • Like 2
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post

<sigh> I will let it go at that...


Dominique

Simming since 1981 -  4770k@3.7 GHz with 16 GB of RAM and a 1080 with 8 GB VRAM running a 27" @ 2560*1440 - Warthog HOTAS - MFG pedals - MFS Standard version with Steam

 

Share this post


Link to post
26 minutes ago, domkle said:

I didn't buy your product  but I am impressed by what you do ! I truly hope you will have some room to show your talent in the new sim. 

I’ve just stated a fact, maybe a little bluntly. I’ve not seen any other dev complaining. 

Should we (the users) be concerned ? Yes, we should be concerned to be positive and proposing ideas, features.... and to underline the importance of the 3PD dev. 

Your passion is very discernable , don’t you see the same when Asobo engineers tell us about their baby ?


 

Playing devil's advocate here, all of this negativity and angst can be very easily resolved by Microsoft taking a more transparent approach with developers that they claim to be involving in the development of the new sim.  It is quite clear, that this is not happening to the extent Microsoft is claiming that it is.  

Uncertainty breeds negativity and it will be very difficult to stop that trend in the development community unless developers are properly engaged and given details of the SDK so that they can start planning ahead.  Any business run well, will be looking at least 2-3 years ahead and as many developers rely on development income alone, it would be reasonable for MS to provide some clarity. 

At the moment, the current development community is flying blind (pun intended) with no instruments -  even though ATC assures them that there is a runway ahead of them.  That really doesn't inspire confidence.

 

  • Like 3
  • Upvote 5

Share this post


Link to post
13 minutes ago, ErichB said:

Playing devil's advocate here, all of this negativity and angst can be very easily resolved by Microsoft taking a more transparent approach with developers that they claim to be involving in the development of the new sim.  It is quite clear, that this is not happening to the extent Microsoft is claiming that it is.  

Uncertainty breeds negativity and it will be very difficult to stop that trend in the development community unless developers are properly engaged and given details of the SDK so that they can start planning ahead.  Any business run well, will be looking at least 2-3 years ahead and as many developers rely on development income alone, it would be reasonable for MS to provide some clarity. 

At the moment, the current development community is flying blind (pun intended) with no instruments -  even though ATC assures them that there is a runway ahead of them.  That really doesn't inspire confidence.

 

Four remarks, Erich. You know as a regular at the FS20 forum that I've been an ardent defender of the 3PD involvement over the years in our hobby but

- I'd rather have MS having a user-centric approach than a 3PD-centric approach.

- I'd rather have the formidably talented Asobo team do their best to lay out the foundations instead of constructing an instable construction just to give room to outsiders, at the beginning at least

- Jorg Neumann said he was in relation with sixty outside developers. That is a very important figure, is it not ?

- I don't see any negativity in the developers community but, repeatedly, from a couple of them

Edited by domkle
  • Like 3
  • Upvote 2

Dominique

Simming since 1981 -  4770k@3.7 GHz with 16 GB of RAM and a 1080 with 8 GB VRAM running a 27" @ 2560*1440 - Warthog HOTAS - MFG pedals - MFS Standard version with Steam

 

Share this post


Link to post

Early news about FS2020 is great new for us. An early SDK release will be good news for devs.

Let's just hope that the Asobo/MS dev team is not taking any of the non-sense on this thread seriously.

Share this post


Link to post
52 minutes ago, domkle said:

Four remarks, Erich. You know as a regular at the FS20 forum that I've been an ardent defender of the 3PD involvement over the years in our hobby but

- I'd rather have MS having a user-centric approach than a 3PD-centric approach.

- I'd rather have the formidably talented Asobo team do their best to lay out the foundations instead of constructing an instable construction just to give room to outsiders, at the beginning at least

- Jorg Neumann said he was in relation with sixty outside developers. That is a very important figure, is it not ?

- I don't see any negativity in the developers community but, repeatedly, from a couple of them

In my opinion a successful sim needs three things.  A powerful platform, a strong user base and a passionate and talented developer community.  It has always been that way.

I am of the same opinion as you to give time for a solid platform to be constructed first.    I also think that the new enthusiasm created in the user community is a great thing.  That will ensure a strong user base (one would think) after a whole year of hype.  

I'm not sure what the answer is here, and neither am I advocating an SDK for developers now, but in the absence of that,  a more transparent discussion with developers would probably help this aspect of the community to plan ahead (or not).  Talent in the developer community should be retained, not alienated.

 

  • Like 3
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, domkle said:

Jorg Neumann said he was in relation with sixty outside developers. That is a very important figure, is it not ?

That could just mean MS have just sent an email to 60 developers with NDA papers saying 'sign this and shut your mouth even if we keep you in the dark.' - as opposed to  'chaps, you'll hear nothing from us until the new year but expect the SDK in 4 months, and this is what we plan to include in it at this stage'.  

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, ErichB said:

In my opinion a successful sim needs three things.  A powerful platform, a strong user base and a passionate and talented developer community.  It has always been that way.

I am of the same opinion as you to give time for a solid platform to be constructed first.    I also think that the new enthusiasm created in the user community is a great thing.  That will ensure a strong user base (one would think) after a whole year of hype.  

I'm not sure what the answer is here, and neither am I advocating an SDK for developers now, but in the absence of that,  a more transparent discussion with developers would probably help this aspect of the community to plan ahead (or not).  Talent in the developer community should be retained, not alienated.

 

 

2 hours ago, ErichB said:

That could just mean MS have just sent an email to 60 developers with NDA papers saying 'sign this and shut your mouth even if we keep you in the dark.' - as opposed to  'chaps, you'll hear nothing from us until the new year but expect the SDK in 4 months, and this is what we plan to include in it at this stage'.  

I agree mostly with everything you say in the first post.  I only wonder whether there is not already some kind of early discussions, this is at least what Neumann says. Why not believing him in absence of evidence of the contrary rather than disgruntled players ? That not everybody has been invited is to clear enough.

Has it to be transparent ? Up to the involved parties to decide, these are not public procurement contracts but private contracts. There is no obligation, even moral, to be transparent and I am not sure that the 3PD invited by MS want their less happy colleagues to be aware of that. 

Edited by domkle
  • Like 1

Dominique

Simming since 1981 -  4770k@3.7 GHz with 16 GB of RAM and a 1080 with 8 GB VRAM running a 27" @ 2560*1440 - Warthog HOTAS - MFG pedals - MFS Standard version with Steam

 

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  
  • Tom Allensworth,
    Founder of AVSIM Online


  • Flight Simulation's Premier Resource!

    AVSIM is a free service to the flight simulation community. AVSIM is staffed completely by volunteers and all funds donated to AVSIM go directly back to supporting the community. Your donation here helps to pay our bandwidth costs, emergency funding, and other general costs that crop up from time to time. Thank you for your support!

    Click here for more information and to see all donations year to date.
  • Donation Goals

    AVSIM's 2020 Fundraising Goal

    Donate to our annual general fundraising goal. This donation keeps our doors open and providing you service 24 x 7 x 365. Your donation here helps to pay our bandwidth costs, emergency funding, and other general costs that crop up from time to time. We reset this goal every new year for the following year's goal.


    50%
    $12,670.00 of $25,000.00 Donate Now
×
×
  • Create New...