4 hours ago, martin-w said:

Trouble is, if you lock down/protect old people in care homes, old people and the sick at home, and allow the virus to propagate elsewhere, you end up with enclaves you are trying to protect, surrounded by a sea of virus. I don't see that as very effective. I fear with that approach there would be multiple vectors for infection. 

My brother is 83 years old and is locked up in one of those places.  They are allowed no visitors since this virus thing started.  The only time I see him is when he has a medical appointment at the cancer clinic or to see the heart doctor.  He has to be accompanied all the time because of his dementia.  They call me up and ask me to meet him at the clinic so they don't have to send a nurse to be with him.

I speak to him on the phone weekly and he told me he needs a new pair of shoes.  Last week when they called me to meet him at the cancer clinic I asked if I could bring him to Target to buy his some new shoes.  They told me no.  He isn't even allowed in my house.   I have to take him straight back to the facility.

While the staff are all required to wear masks none of the 'inmates' are required to do so.

He has dementia, congestive heart failure, and blood cancer.  I don't understand why we come from the same gene pool and he has all these afflictions and I have none.  I guess since I am the oldest and was in the womb first I stole all the good genes and just left him the bad ones.

Noel

1 hour ago, pete_auau said:

think this  one  going to break  every  record  since  we  still got  another  year or  so of  this

Or more.  I'm doing my part to keep it alive.

Noel

3 hours ago, W2DR said:

So why not just carry-on and pay the occasional fine? Or don't you truly believe in the "stuff" you've been posting here? Seems like a just cause given your strong feelings. But, you can't have it both ways.

Because this fine will cause most people to start wearing the masks.  Right now most don't.  So I'm in the crowd now.  Starting Saturday I won't be.

Noel

4 hours ago, martin-w said:

 

Sweden becomes country with highest coronavirus death rate per capita...

 

 

To be honest, Sweden may not have shut EVERYTHING down, but they are complying with social distancing advice voluntarily.

I think we have to understand that these country comparisons are not going to be accurate. They are all calculated differently. It wont be until we can look at all cause mortality in a couple of years time that we will truly know how will each nation has done. So many variables at play. 

 

As I say, so many variables...

 

 

 

If you look at the Sweden map of Covid-19 cases it is evident that in the low population density parts of the country there are very few cases.  You can't just look at the average population density.

It is common sense that the number of cases, and thus deaths, will be much larger in major metropolitan areas, not small towns and rural areas.  These areas should be treated differently.  No need for one-size-fits-all national shutdowns and restrictions.

I generally agree with you that country to country comparisons cannot be completely valid without a lot of adjustments for demographics, culture, climate, housing, etc.

Dave

Edited May 21, 20206 yr by dave2013

1 minute ago, dave2013 said:

I generally agree with you that country to country comparisons cannot be completely valid without a lot of adjustments for demographics, culture, climate, housing, etc.

Exactly.  But try to get people to realize we don't all live in the same boat.

Noel

24 minutes ago, birdguy said:

Ah, your beloved state again will teach us how to eat.  And perhaps what to eat.

Noel

You seemed to express that you did not know what to do. Maybe you needed their help with how to deal with wearing a mask in public and how to put food inside your mouth.

A couple quotes just to remind people that we must remain vigilant not only of Covid-19, but other things as well:

***********************************************************************************

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

***********************************************************************************

“I want to pause here and talk about this notion of consensus, and the rise of what has been called consensus science. I regard consensus science as an extremely pernicious development that ought to be stopped cold in its tracks. Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled. Whenever you hear the consensus of scientists agrees on something or other, reach for your wallet, because you're being had.

Let's be clear: the work of science has nothing whatever to do with consensus. Consensus is the business of politics. Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right, which means that he or she has results that are verifiable by reference to the real world. In science consensus is irrelevant. What is relevant is reproducible results. The greatest scientists in history are great precisely because they broke with the consensus.

There is no such thing as consensus science. If it's consensus, it isn't science. If it's science, it isn't consensus. Period.” - Michael Crichton

************************************************************************************

 

Dave

30 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

You can't just look at the average population density.

Dave

 

You can if you do the same with the country you are comparing to. Those that say Sweden haven't done any worse than the UK are not really correct. If the average population density is lower than the UK's, intergenerational mixing lower, and they are getting higher or equal deaths to the UK, then they objectively aren't doing as well. There are other additional factors too that have given Sweden an advantage that hasn't translated into fewer deaths.

 

Will Sweden's philosophy turn out to be better long term? Well we shall see, but those who are using Sweden to imply lockdown isnt effective NOW are in error.

Incidentally, we have been social distancing and locking down since the 5th century BC. We know it works. These days we have the economic damage to consider, so it's a tricky balancing act. Certainly something we cant sustain too long.

Edited May 21, 20206 yr by martin-w

30 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

There is no such thing as consensus science. If it's consensus, it isn't science. If it's science, it isn't consensus. Period.” - Michael Crichton

Read a rebuttal to Michael Crichton here:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.brookings.edu/opinions/michael-crichton-and-global-warming/amp/
 

In the era of fake news, keep in mind that Crichton was a novelist who wrote fantasies about fake science, which is commonly referred to as science fiction. He was trained as a physician who never fully embraced medicine as a profession. If anything his goal in life was to attack scientific progress. His ideas captured the imagination and entertained billions of people. But he wasn’t a scientist by any stretch of the imagination. As he got older he became a bitter curmudgeon and a world renowned climate change quack. Quoting Crichton to make a point about science is like quoting Ray Kroc to make a point about gourmet cooking.

38 minutes ago, jabloomf1230 said:

Read a rebuttal to Michael Crichton here:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.brookings.edu/opinions/michael-crichton-and-global-warming/amp/
 

In the era of fake news, keep in mind that Crichton was a novelist who wrote fantasies about fake science, which is commonly referred to as science fiction. He was trained as a physician who never fully embraced medicine as a profession. If anything his goal in life was to attack scientific progress. His ideas captured the imagination and entertained billions of people. But he wasn’t a scientist by any stretch of the imagination. As he got older he became a bitter curmudgeon and a world renowned climate change quack. Quoting Crichton to make a point about science is like quoting Ray Kroc to make a point about gourmet cooking.

I know that Crichton was a writer, and a pretty good one.  Whatever you personally may think of him, his quote is nevertheless valid IMO.

You have your opinions and I have mine.

Dave

Interestingly, the meaning of the quote from Benjamin Franklin is also open to question.

"You have your opinions and I have mine" just means "I am right, you are wrong and I am not listening".

Edited May 21, 20206 yr by Reader

1 hour ago, dave2013 said:

A couple quotes just to remind people that we must remain vigilant not only of Covid-19, but other things as well:

I am reminded of Justice Jackson's famous quote - "The Constitution is not a suicide pact".

Cheers!

1 hour ago, KevinAu said:

You seemed to express that you did not know what to do. Maybe you needed their help with how to deal with wearing a mask in public and how to put food inside your mouth.

Having never had to eat with a mask on the only thing I can think of is lifting the mask, taking in a forkful of food, and lowering it again.  Ugh!  No what I would call elegant dining.  I'll pass.  I would rather eat my own cooking at home sans mask.

Noel

37 minutes ago, Reader said:

"You have your opinions and I have mine" just means "I am right, you are wrong and I am not listening".

I like it.  Having been on my high school debating team and at times having to defend a position I did not hold it makes perfect sense.

Noel

42 minutes ago, dave2013 said:

I know that Crichton was a writer, and a pretty good one.  Whatever you personally may think of him, his quote is nevertheless valid IMO.

One of my favorite authors.  Watched The Terminal Man on TV the other night.

Noel