1 hour ago, martin-w said:

 

Well physics tells us that it is actually possible to create a universe from nothing. Important to point out though that science has redefined what nothing is. Quantum physics tells us that "nothing" is actually replete with particles popping in and out of existence for a very brief moment, particles of matter and antimatter, before destroying themselves. Not true particles, they are virtual particles.

That sounds like BS to me, even for quantum physics.

1 minute ago, Christopher Low said:

That sounds like BS to me, even for quantum physics.

 

Quote

 

Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine.

J. B. S. Haldane

 

Honestly, as I get older I think I'm becoming increasingly nihilistic. 

When you think of how we now believe the universe will end, what can we do that means anything?

When our entire species and all our accomplishments are just an ephemeral blip, eventually lost and forgotten in the dark; what does any of it matter?

I realize this thread has gone off topic a touch here and there. When I think of the underlying theme of the thread title, I often think about the fact that we sometimes think things are impossible only because we do not have the knowledge that we gain from the future. When we increase our knowledge going forward into the future, ideas that seemed impossible in the present, now become possible as our knowledge base expands.

“The future is not a gift, it is an achievement” Albert Einstein

 

10 hours ago, Christopher Low said:

That sounds like BS to me, even for quantum physics.

 

Nope... not BS. The total energy of the universe is indeed precisely zero. Gravitational energy can indeed be regarded as negative energy. Thus, a universe from nothing does not defy the the first law of thermodynamics. Quantum physics tells us that "nothing" is inherently unstable.

 

 

 

10 hours ago, martin-w said:

Nope... not BS.

Maybe it is and maybe it isn't.  Nothing in this realm is carved in granite.

Astronomy and physics and quantum theory are replete with "We used to think, but now we knows."  And what we know today will become tomorrow's 'we used to think' when a new 'now we know' pops up.

Our current knowledge is probably a trillionth of what we need to know to really begin understand the universe and it's secrets.  

You cannot post a video of one man telling us about a universe from nothing say it is definitive until every astronomer and physicist and astrophysicist and quantum physicist agrees; and then it still may be wrong. 

But it's fun to speculate.

Noel

Edited June 30, 20205 yr by birdguy

20 hours ago, birdguy said:

Maybe it is and maybe it isn't.  Nothing in this realm is carved in granite.

 

 

This is where some people go wrong. A universe arising from nothing, string theory, M Theory, even inflation, are not claimed to be definitive fact. I didnt claim that and neither does science. What science does say is that the aforementioned is in accordance with how we currently believe the laws of physics function. So they are plausible. What we dont know is if, definitely, nature chose to do it that way. However... in terms of cosmic inflation, the inflaton field, there is evidence in its favour, and is currently our most favoured theory.

But again,as I said previously, there are competing theories. For example Penrose's Conformal Cosmology.

However.... Yes, there is much in science that is carved in stone, known for certain. The very device you are using now, wouldnt function without our knowledge of a number of scientific fields. Including quantum physics. In fact, quantum physics and in particular quantum field theory are our most succesful theories. They make precise predictions that we can experimentally prove to be correct.

 

"Astronomy and physics and quantum theory are replete with "We used to think, but now we knows."  And what we know today will become tomorrow's 'we used to think' when a new 'now we know' pops up."

Not really. Science works by an incremental increase in knowledge. Theories are rarely abandoned completly. Rather, theories are tweaked and fine tuned as we learn more.

"You cannot post a video of one man telling us about a universe from nothing say it is definitive until every astronomer and physicist and astrophysicist and quantum physicist agrees; and then it still may be wrong"

it's not one man. The plausibility of a universe popping into existence from nothing wasn't dreamed up by Krauss, he just wrote a book about it. It's a plausible POSSIBILITY that many physicists except. That's PLAUSIBLE POSSIBILITY. what we can say of course, is that virtual particles are real, the fact that they pop into existence from nowhere is well tested and a tightly woven theory that if it were wrong quantum theory would collapse and we would have no quantum theory that makes such accurate predictions. So it's not really such a stretch to take seriously the notion of a universe being created in the same way. 

 

Edited July 1, 20205 yr by martin-w

The key word here is PLAUSIBLE and I would ad 'according to the current state of knowledge in the field'.

Every day I go to Google News and skip through the headlines and entertainment and sports sections until I reach the Science section.  Lot's of interesting articles there.  Many I only get a glimpse of understanding as I read them.  But they I find them worth reading anyway.  Like this one: https://www.livescience.com/metal-century-old-chemistry-experiment.html

Noel

On 6/29/2020 at 6:33 PM, HiFlyer said:

what can we do that means anything?

Love.

11 hours ago, birdguy said:

The key word here is PLAUSIBLE 

Noel

 

Yes, it is the key word in the respect of how the universe was created, whether is was as a result of bubbles floating in higher dimensional space and colliding to form our universe, an inflaton  field who's exponential expansion suddenly stopped, eternal inflation, conformal cosmology, or any of the other unproven ideas. If you ask any scientist what happened before the hot big bang, the answer you will get is "we dont know, but we have some ideas". Science is quite honest about what it knows and doesnt know.

For example... is the universe finite or infinite? Science will tell you we dont know. This is despite our best measurements telling us that the geometry of the universe is flat, which suggests the universe is infinite. Scientists still say they dont know because the universe could be still curved and thus finite if our measurements were accurate enough to detect that minuscule degree of curvature.

Science and scientists are criticised way too much these days, in fact there is a war on science to some degree, propagated by certain industries. 

Its madness, science has given us much of what we hold dear in modern society. Without it we are screwed.

9 hours ago, CYXR said:

Love.

 

Love means everything NOW and we need more of it. But the point that was made was that the ultimate fate of the universe is currently believed to be cold and dark. With the universe so stretched, so expanded, that not even particles remain intact. All that will remain is a scalar field.

What does love mean then? Hence the nihilism.

45 minutes ago, martin-w said:

 

Love means everything NOW and we need more of it. But the point that was made was that the ultimate fate of the universe is currently believed to be cold and dark. With the universe so stretched, so expanded, that not even particles remain intact. All that will remain is a scalar field.

What does love mean then? Hence the nihilism.

10 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000  000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 years leave us a little time to give a meaning to life and, possibly, enjoy it.

PS  Don’t wear out your eyes counting the zeros it is 10^100

Edited July 2, 20205 yr by Dominique_K

2 hours ago, martin-w said:

What does love mean then?

It means that matter exists and that it`s existence matters. 

2 hours ago, CYXR said:

It means that matter exists and that it`s existence matters. 

Matter wont exist in the distant future though. The universe is expanding, and not just expanding, accelerating. There will be no matter, just a field.

Love is not matter.  Love and devotion are emotions peculiar to human beings and perhaps some other animals.  When intelligent life on this planet dies so will love.

Noel