51 minutes ago, reignman40 said:

How do we know the realism or physics settings weren't turned off or set to some kind of "game mode" ??

There was another leaked video before the press release that showed the same behaviour in Simulation mode.

Really I will stop complaining, at least until release or if you want for ever (it`s OK), but if things were as shown at the moment concerning the physics, can you live with that? I mean could you still enjoy the game?. (Perhaps I am totally wrong?)

I couldn`t and even if it just shows the state of the alpha and beta version, how in the world are elemental things missing?  Damping forces, no mass inertia no weight distribution.

The problem is that they are at first easy to implement, it`s almost primitive to add damping forces or recbounce. So no excuse for me there.

 

Saw here a randomly picked real video. Look at the 737 beauty and its nice damping while landing. 737

On the 787 you can see there is less damping and some nice distribution of the forces on landing and clearly some nice wing bounce - turbines included. As it seems resulting from the higher weight and less damping of the plane.

Edited August 11, 20205 yr by BigDee

BigDee, you are barking a whole lot, and I'm not sure I know what for. I've seen GTA like movies from MSFS. I've also seen them from Xp and p3d. At this point, where the sim has not yet released, and the devs have stated they are in this for the long run and obviously take pride in their work, you kinda have to answer your own question with: Can you have faith or not that they will continually work to improve the sim and make it the best it can be?

If you notice something in the sim that is off or wrong, then if you are a tester you should report back. If it is something fundamental and you can prove that it is off, then I would think Asobo will prioritize fixing it. At least if it is something, as you say, that is fundamental and thus a problem for all or many users and 3rd party developers. 

7 hours ago, BigDee said:

Really I will stop complaining, at least until release or if you want for ever (it`s OK), but if things were as shown at the moment concerning the physics, can you live with that? I mean could you still enjoy the game?. (Perhaps I am totally wrong?)

Give them some time. This is a whole new flight model and innovative flight sim overall. They've done that in 5 years. The things you mention sure are quirks and bugs (interaction with wind, dampening issues, etc), but they will get fixed. In the videos you can also see that the general flight model works fine - which has been confirmed by several RL pilots.

First wait until the release version, then if the problem is not fixed (likely), keep using your current sim until you feel it's OK for you.

 

7 hours ago, Andreas Stangenes said:

If it is something fundamental and you can prove that it is off, then I would think Asobo will prioritize fixing it.

It's most likely not fundamental, rather consequences of a totally new flight model having its birth issues. It still needs time to get fixed, cause on such complex matters changing one thing might affect other components, so they have to be careful.

Ok. Thanks for sharing your opinion.

 

Whatever comes, it`s likely to expect that products like PMDG will hopefully feauture some top quality simulation planes. This combination of graphics and simulation will be much exciting to see. But it would have been a better idea if Asobo would have prioritized the physics firstly in those 5 years.

 

I`m looking forward to the release and the reviews and videos with it. I`ve seen some great Add-Ons for X-Plane like Reshade and Rain Mod, I think the open SDK will offer a lot of variety of add-ons very soon.

 

Btw. A. Stangenes it would be nice if you could link me the videos of arcade like videos of X-Plane, P3D. Just curious to watch it.

52 minutes ago, tweekz said:

the general flight model works fine - which has been confirmed by several RL pilots

I wouldn‘t say that. It is like the Amazon customer reviews. You find everything and its opposite.

I watched a live youtube stream of a default A320Neo flight and holy frack the oscillation was so noticeable and bad.

There was the same problem with jetliners oscillating in FSX and yet the same problem at the launch of MSFS2020. Can't they still get the bigger planes behaving correctly for the launch of the simulator ? I wont personally be touching the bigger jets at all until they will fix the oscillation problem during autopilot cruise. Better just to hand fly the smaller planes first.

40 minutes ago, Dominique_K said:

I wouldn‘t say that. It is like the Amazon customer reviews. You find everything and its opposite.

Let me tell you how I came to that impression. Not implying this is the ultimate truth - but to me it seems reasonable.

People like FlightDeck2Sim (involved with XP) or AeroNewsGermany are very reliable sources, both real world pilots. They both confirmed basic aerodynamics to be good. This is a very important observation. A fundamentally flawed model mostly doesn't result in working fine with few details behaving weird. That's rather an indication for bugs / quirks.

When watching YT videos, I've had the impression that outside of gusty conditions the flight dynamics behave reasonable - quite good indeed, with some exceptions.

Then there's a logical approach. You won't take the effort to develope an all-new flight model to end up worse than P3D/FSX. Sure it is possible, but I just don't have the impression of ASOBO doing such a poor job. Things like the inertia quirk can be expected with the scale of this project.

Finally, there is so much unfounded hysteria in forums with such things, which in the end mostly turn out to be far less severe than expected.

-> R-E-L-A-X 🙂

Edited August 12, 20205 yr by tweekz

Avsimmers waited years to get good flight modeling in other sims but can't even wait for release for this one. 😶

3 hours ago, Concorde79 said:

I watched a live youtube stream of a default A320Neo flight and holy frack the oscillation was so noticeable and bad.

There was the same problem with jetliners oscillating in FSX and yet the same problem at the launch of MSFS2020. Can't they still get the bigger planes behaving correctly for the launch of the simulator ? I wont personally be touching the bigger jets at all until they will fix the oscillation problem during autopilot cruise. Better just to hand fly the smaller planes first.

Yes, the completely unrealistic oscillations are mainly in pitch (nose up, nose down). I've said before and do so now until I'm blue in the face! - that modern aircraft are remarkably stable in pitch. That is partly because wings are designed  to promote longitudinal stability. Turbulence and control-induced oscillations come in 3 broad types, or 4 if you include phugoid.

1) Roll oscillations caused by temporary assymetrical lift between both wings, typically when turbulence creates more lift or sink in one wing as opposed to the opposite wing.

2) Instability in yaw caused by cross wind gusts. These are stabilised automatically (in time) by the weather-vaning effect of the fuselage and tail-fin without rudder input, unless the effect is extreme or very turbulent, in which case a yaw damper makes subtle corrections, or at low and safe speeds the pilot might correct, especially when close to landing. This oscillation is much slower than roll oscillation.

3) Pockets of lift and sink which act on the WHOLE aircraft, but largely have little impact on nose-up or nose-down. This is the stomach churning feeling you get as an airliner passes through areas of unstable air in, typically, intense cloud build up.

Roll is by far the most prevalent effect of turbulence, followed by yaw, followed by only a small movement in pitch. Yaw oscillations are probably less than half the frequency of roll oscillations (ie they are slower). That is why yaw inertia in sim aircraft should generally be set at double the roll inertia. Pitch inertia and stability is affected by several things. 1) How quickly a control input changes pitch attitude, relative to elevator size and authority. 2) How quickly or slowly the aircraft wants to return to the previous pitch attitude 3).The mass of the aircraft (related to inertia) 

Look at the video below, published a few hours ago. Watch the landing approaches. You can see clearly that the "pilot", a YouTube gaming channel owner, while not showing high levels of skill and is being a bit clumsy with his joystick, nevertheless the Cessna Caravan is bobbing up and down in pitch as though dangled from the end of a very slack giant spring. It looks almost like pilot-induced oscillation, but it isn't. It demonstrates the ridiculously exaggerated short frequency tendency to return to previous pitch, but it is so overdone that the poor Caravan's nose is virtually uncontrollable and passes the point of pitch stability to produce several more up and down oscillations. Watch the take off at 7+minutes in. The yo-yo motion of the nose on rotation is comically ridiculous.

 If this was a real Caravan it would be grounded as a danger to aviation. If I were a Cessna executive I'd object strongly to one of my aircraft being portrayed in this way:

Yes, the pitch stick inputs are too strong, but not so strong that they should promote such ludicrously excessive pitch instability. Ask any professional Caravan pilot and they would be aghast at this representation of their aircraft. Below is the well known professional SteveoKenivo piloting the Caravan on a gusty, turbulent day. Notice on the approach and landing that there is very little pitch instabililty. If Steveo inputs down or up pitch, the aircraft nose stays where it is put. Also notice that towards the landing flare Steveo inputs quite large pitch yoke inputs and the nose does not bob up and down at all. It solidly reacts without any bobbing oscillations. Given the cloud/ air mass conditions there is remarkable stability in every axis.

 

This is an illustration of why Asobo's statement "no more flying on rails" is such a misinterpretation of that absurd phrase which falsely implies that somehow aircraft should be bucking around all over the place to be "authentic". This utter myth is promoted by those who really think that light aircraft should inherently be grossly unstable in every axis. It is just plain nonsense. The only major area where the FSX core flight model is "on rails" is in yaw. In that regard the over-strong weather-vaning stops proper sideslip control and is indeed somewhat "on the rails". But in pitch and roll FSX is by no means on rails and in pitch the out-of-the-box flight model on small aircraft has far too much pitch instability. You do not notice this in large aircraft because their high mass and inertia damps out excessive pitch instability.

 

As for the assertion that the developers need much time to develop this "new" flight model, I respectfully disagree. You can set proper pitch stability INSTANTLY by changing some very simple values. It requires five minutes of tweaking, not five years! This is really basic stuff.

 

 

Edited August 12, 20205 yr by robert young
typo

55 minutes ago, tweekz said:

 

-> R-E-L-A-X 🙂

😀 I already played with almost 20 flightsims in my life, once every two years on average, I know more or less what to expect. I look forward to FS20 with reasonable good anticipation (crossing my fingers and throwing some salt over my shoulder though, you never know, it may help).

We’ll see when all the Real Life Pilots  open their kimono. I expect interesting  conversations then. Some are happy, some are less happy, some are not happy at all. And I only talk of RLP who know what a flight simulator is.

There are two issues : are the default aircraft up to the hype ? Consensus is no. I can live with that, nothing new. A bit sorry however If the default birds were once again a stopgap, and that Asobo wouldn’t break the « tradition » . Are the flight models tweakable or their flaws ingrained in the new flight architecture ? That is the real question. The optimist you are say yes they can be improved, the agnostic I am, says we’ll see.

PS the usual caveat, nobody has the final release in hands

 

Hopefully by tradition the new sim will be easily moddable and loads of new addons start to flow in soon.

I used to build lots of AI traffic back in the FS9/FSX days and always update them to new schedules etc. Had just a separate hard drive for my flight sim addons.

Been simming since the FS1 days so I am actually looking forward to this new sim. Was very sad after FSX they announced that there would be no new sim by Microsoft.

Also couldnt find my old avsim account from the 1999 so had to make a new one.

1 hour ago, Dominique_K said:

Are the flight models tweakable or their flaws ingrained in the new flight architecture ? That is the real question. The optimist you are say yes they can be improved, the agnostic I am, says we’ll see.

Good post.

I would like to add that theoretically everything is tweakable. It just depends on how much work it will take and how much effort you are willing to put into. Let's go ASOBO! 😉

25 minutes ago, tweekz said:

It just depends on how much work it will take and how much effort you are willing to put into.

What I'd like to see to make tweaking easier is the elimination of the .air file and put the parameters you'd normally find there as plain text in a config file.  Gee... I wonder if they can do that...

Hook

7 minutes ago, tweekz said:

Good post.

I would like to add that theoretically everything is tweakable. It just depends on how much work it will take and how much effort you are willing to put into. Let's go ASOBO! 😉

Thanks

Not everything is tweakable if the basic architecture is wrong. Case in point in engine management :  no designer has been able to tweak the FSX/P3D turboprop template to his satisfaction until now, if I am not mistaken. Rob Young did a great job with the Duke but explains in the manual at great length the limitations he faced. Majestic borrowed an outside model. A2A has shied away for years from making an Accusim one except for the recent model of Texan II for the USAF (Not sold to the public). The regional turboprop announced by PMDG seems to have fallen into oblivion. Etc. 

Asobo has constructed a whole new architecture, it is impossible to assess its « tweakability » at this time. 

8 minutes ago, LHookins said:

What I'd like to see to make tweaking easier is the elimination of the .air file and put the parameters you'd normally find there as plain text in a config file.  Gee... I wonder if they can do that...

Hook

If my memory serves me well, this was the case with Fly! ?