1 hour ago, Slides said:

do you have an example of a video from a sim where you the think pitch stability is correctly modeled for GA?

lol ... I couldn't resist of clourse ...

 

 

4 hours ago, robert young said:

As for the assertion that the developers need much time to develop this "new" flight model, I respectfully disagree. You can set proper pitch stability INSTANTLY by changing some very simple values. It requires five minutes of tweaking, not five years! This is really basic stuff.

It depends on the type of flight model.

For a "descriptive" flight model (like FSX/P3D), tweaking and tuning is generally easier and indeed you can modify e.g. pitch stability by editing a single coefficient.

If the flight model is partially or mostly "predictive" (like XP and many other current sims, and apparently also the new MSFS), then tweaking a specific behaviour may be more complicated. In some cases it may even require improvements to the underlying flight model code (in this case, that would be Asobo).

So there could be a couple of reasons explaining the apparent pitch instability of default aircraft, e.g.:

.) This first iteration of this new flight model tends to underestimate stability, but maybe Asobo is aware and has already planned to improve it in future iterations;

or

.) The new flight model already allows extensive tweaking, but somehow Asobo neglected to tune the flight models of default aircraft for some reason (other priorities, etc.).

I agree with you that it should be basic stuff, but the flight models of default MS aircraft have historically always been mediocre.

We actually know very little about the new flight model at the moment, only after release we'll know the extent and easiness with which it can be tweaked by 3rd parties.

 

5 hours ago, robert young said:

As for the assertion that the developers need much time to develop this "new" flight model, I respectfully disagree. You can set proper pitch stability INSTANTLY by changing some very simple values. It requires five minutes of tweaking, not five years! This is really basic stuff

Well then this is very good news, is it not? This means that the average "tweaker" among us can easily change that behavior as we see fit then...i.e. no waiting!

Edited August 12, 20205 yr by hangar

39 minutes ago, RudyB24 said:

lol ... I couldn't resist of clourse ...

 

 

Lol, but in real life a Cessna even on a calm day will move around more than you would expect.  Watch this from 8:41.

 

 

Edited August 12, 20205 yr by Slides

1 minute ago, Slides said:

Lol, but in real life a Cessna even on a calm day will move around more than you would expect.

It's funny how much the movements of the other planes resembles what we see in the external views of the MSFS videos.  I guess anyone who has done real life formation flying would have noticed this.

Hook

Just now, LHookins said:

It's funny how much the movements of the other planes resembles what we see in the external views of the MSFS videos.  I guess anyone who has done real life formation flying would have noticed this.

Hook

And the fact that most pilots don't do formation flying and think they are always stable, they would not even know how much their GA moves around.

2 hours ago, robert young said:

Yup. A2A are pretty good, generally speaking. Without wishing to be immodest, both RealAir Dukes are satisfactory in pitch, as is the Lancair Legacy even though it is a high performance GA capable of quite high G maneouvres. There are plenty of other products that demonstrate reasonably authentic pitch stability in both FSX and P3d.

Is your complaint on the model in general or are there situations that are worse than others?

What do you think about this video?

 

9 minutes ago, Slides said:

Lol, but in real life a Cessna even on a call day will move around more than you would expect.  Watch this from 8:41.

 

 

I tell you what! This young guy in Cessna jerking controls for nothing! I've seen pilots like that a lot, and the first thing I  ask them to do, is to fly airplane using only throttle, rudders, and elevator trim. One hour of such training to no more yoke drama.

Here is my used to be student doing hood work in gusty and turbulent conditions. You can see his yoke movement time to time   

 

1 minute ago, sd_flyer said:

I tell you what! This young guy in Cessna jerking controls for nothing! I've seen pilots like that a lot, and the first thing I  ask them to do, is to fly airplane using only throttle, rudders, and elevator trim. One hour of such training to no more yoke drama.

Here is my used to be student doing hood work in gusty and turbulent conditions. You can see his yoke movement time to time   

 

He's formation flying.

Just now, Slides said:

He's formation flying.

And we flying holding precise heading just like one would do in formation

Just now, sd_flyer said:

And we flying holding precise heading just like one would do in formation

No you're not. You have no point of reference in the air only to the ground. You don't have to as precise. That's exactly what the passenger (also a pilot) commented on the video I posted.

6 minutes ago, sd_flyer said:

the first thing I  ask them to do, is to fly airplane using only throttle, rudders, and elevator trim.

I flew an entire pattern once in FSX in the Carenado Cessna 337 that way, just to see if it could be done.  The only time I touched the yoke was to flare, and I suspect I could have accomplished a good landing with just the throttle.  And this was before the days of TrackIR. 🙂 

When I mentioned this to a CFI on the forum here, he was a bit surprised.

Glad to see someone incorporating it into actual training.

Hook

22 minutes ago, Slides said:

Lol, but in real life a Cessna even on a calm day will move around more than you would expect

I know, I know. I had wind on zero. Of course with a cross wind component and with gusts it should move, shake and rattle, and even some with zero wind.

Still I think the general consensus here in this thread is that with a couple of the MFS video's we saw a behavior that is somewhat ... how to put it ... unnatural? Challenging what your brain says is physically right? As if my brain tells me 'something is off here', because my personal AI has been trained with multiple years of watching the real things fly and they never bumped up and down or left or right this abrupt, even in high winds?

Luckily we know Asobo has it on their list of 'things to do', it'll get fixed.

And the general consensus also is that it'll be impossible to please everyone. 

I'm certainly going to get my copy of MSF ... as soon as those 3000 video cards are out and I can build my new rig (word is there will be a presentation begin of September).

 

 

13 minutes ago, Slides said:

No you're not. You have no point of reference in the air only to the ground. You don't have to as precise. That's exactly what the passenger (also a pilot) commented on the video I posted.

I flew with marines in formation to know how, so I'm not going to argue here. From my perspective as flight instructor "dramatic yoke movement" is very common misconception on how airplanes really fly. When I was fresh private pilot I used to do it as well! And as all of my students schooled by me I was also schooled by my CFI not do it.

34 minutes ago, RudyB24 said:

I know, I know. I had wind on zero. Of course with a cross wind component and with gusts it should move, shake and rattle, and even some with zero wind.

Even experience pilots not used to formation flying would say the plane is moving around too much from the external view. Or even the cockpit view if they can't feel the g effects as in real life. We have to change our perceptions too.

Edited August 12, 20205 yr by n4gix
Removed unnecessary long quote!