2 hours ago, robert young said:

I don't understand why you say we couldn't know what roll she is commanding. You can SEE exactly that.

You can see the roll input on the yoke - but you don't know the affect it's having on the aircraft. As an example, I've flown approaches where upon feeling a left wing drop (before if actually drops) I've held full right roll - just to keep the wings level (or perhaps a small right roll in the opposite direction). From that you could say "hey - to get a small roll to the right that guy had full right stick deflection!" But that isn't telling the story! 

(As an aside, it's not a nice feeling to hit the stick stops and it still keeps rolling the wrong way 🤣)

Regarding the joystick comment, we're somewhat going in circles and I don't think we disagree - my view is that for all we know this guy has got his sensitivity through the roof, thus his small inputs on the stick are actually huge inputs in the sim. Equally you could be correct, it's purely speculative.

Regarding the last sentence, yes that's true. Currently 777/787 rated - it seems silly but I won't say which to give myself a little anonymity.

I should note that I don't question your qualification or judgement - clearly you're extremely successful and capable in the simulation field! I wouldn't have an idea where to start. My only disagreement is in the perception of what we see in these videos.

Edited August 12, 20205 yr by n4gix
Removed unnecessary long quote!

2 hours ago, 2reds2whites said:

From that you could say "hey - to get a small roll to the right that guy had full right stick deflection!" But that isn't telling the story! .

Fair enough. Best wishes.

Edit: it did occur to me that as line training in commercial jets is now almost entirely sim based, does that mean that as an examiner/instructor, doing a pilot check is invalid because they are in a sim, which is a video facsimile of a flight in a virtual environment? What conditions are different between judging what an instructor sees and observes in a motion sim as opposed to a consumer sim? Both show a moving picture of reaction to control inputs and both attempt to emulate flight.

Of course the expensive motion sim is expected to be more accurate, but the process is the same - ie one person watching a video of another handling controls and observing the virtual aircraft's reaction.

With respect, you can see very clearly what effect the control inputs are having on the 737. Now exiting stage left pursued by a bear!

BTW, I sincerely hope you are not laid off at the moment, or if you are, that you can return to your profession as soon as possible. Kind Regards.

Edited August 12, 20205 yr by n4gix
Removed unnecessary long quote!

1 hour ago, Andreas Stangenes said:

Well,  people dont have to agree with you to make it any more clear that people like you will help drive this sim forwards. There are plenty of people applauding Asobo, and so are you in a way, but you are also coming forward with rational and experience based feedback. I don't have the compentcy to judge what is right and what is wrong, but I hope Asobo will at least go and check to see if your concerns are valid. 

Thanks you for your kind comments. I really do mean to be helpful, not combative for the sake of it.

20 minutes ago, robert young said:

I really do mean to be helpful, not combative for the sake of it.

Good man, hopefully when you have the sim all will be clearer. I don’t think atm the aircraft to fly are the airliners. From what I hear the flight model of the 152 is good so that might be a good starting place for your feed back Robert.

Unlike P3D and FSX we now have curves on all axis.

Edited August 12, 20205 yr by Nyxx

I posted a question in another thread which has mysteriously disappeared so I'll ask here instead.

When I fly in real life (particularly with students) the aircraft will occasionally bounce on landing. Not an issue in reality - full power and go around (for students at least).

I don't think this was modelled in any of the previous MSFS versions - so do any of you know if aircraft in the new MSFS have "bounce" realistically modelled.

Anyone?

Cheers

Adam

 

 

 

49 minutes ago, TrafficPilot said:

I don't think this was modelled in any of the previous MSFS versions - so do any of you know if aircraft in the new MSFS have "bounce" realistically modelled.

It's modeled. How realistic it is we'll see on the 18th

Edited August 12, 20205 yr by n4gix
Removed unnecessary long quote!

50 minutes ago, TrafficPilot said:

I don't think this was modelled in any of the previous MSFS versions - so do any of you know if aircraft in the new MSFS have "bounce" realistically modelled.

Light airplane bounce to ta degree. I don't know how asobo calculate tolerances, but at some point during very hard landing screen goes black.

Every time my students bounce 90% of the time the front wheel go shimmy 🙂 If they start proposing  we go around !

 

Edited August 12, 20205 yr by n4gix
Removed unnecessary long quote!

2 hours ago, robert young said:

Fair enough. Best wishes.

BTW, I sincerely hope you are not laid off at the moment, or if you are, that you can return to your profession as soon as possible. Kind Regards.

I only know the line training requirements for my own outfit, but the specific requirements differ between airlines and authorities.

That said, all line training is done in the aircraft ' i.e 'on the line.'

The entire type rating on a commercial jet is sim based (barring the ground school and technical exams). From there, for a brand new pilot they would get base training - essentially circuits in an empty aircraft. If you're transferring type and the organisation is certified for Zero Flight Time (ZFT) then you can skip the base detail and go straight into line training, but you must have operated a similiar type. 

Line training, to my knowledge, is always done on the line. Whilst the Type Rating covers technical aspects and failures, the purpose of line training is to train and observe the normal operation, hence it's always done on normal commercial flights with passengers. You might do one single 'full flight' in the simulator during the type rating without any failures, but that's not really the point of it. 

I don't know the requirements for trainers in regard to how often they need to observe various flights to maintain their license (as I'm not one). That said, there are none-line trainers at lots of companies, who never see a real flight - and their license is maintained.

As for the different between a consumer sim and the full motion, it really is a world of difference in regards to the confidence an instructor can have when signing you off. Beyond the difference in accuracy (which is collossal, down to the perfect resistance of the controls/trim etc) - the motion induces another layer of complexity and capacity-suck which just isn't present in a consumer sim. I'm sure it's common knowledge but the modules/controls from most 'Level D' sims can be transplanted into a real aircraft and they'd work just fine. 

I don't think I've particularly answered your question, but some might find the rambling interesting.

Edited August 12, 20205 yr by n4gix
Removed unnecessary long quote!

40 minutes ago, 2reds2whites said:

I don't think I've particularly answered your question, but some might find the rambling interesting.

Thank you!

Edited August 12, 20205 yr by n4gix
Removed unnecessary long quote!

5 minutes ago, robert young said:

Thank you!

I have recurrent next month. I have 2 sim sessions, I'll take notes and report back to you.

Im sure you'll be interested in the differences from real flying and flying a level d sim.

I will say this, flying the sim is much harder than the real plane. It's way to sensitive on the controls and doesnt exactly behave the way you would expect the real airplane to.

It literally feels like you're flying on rails. 

 

2 hours ago, robert young said:

I have written to them. And received a reply that was encouraging. I'm not here to bash gratuitously. I love the scenery and most of the weather, airfilelds, lighting, graphics and what I've seen of the interior and exterior models. It could be a wonderful sim. I'm pointing out some basic flaws that very few others seem to care about.

Robert - are you familiar with the FSX turboprop model and if yes has it been corrected in FS2020?

Cheers

bs

29 minutes ago, 2reds2whites said:

I only know the line training requirements for my own outfit, but the specific requirements differ between airlines and authorities.

That said, all line training is done in the aircraft ' i.e 'on the line.'

The entire type rating on a commercial jet is sim based (barring the ground school and technical exams). From there, for a brand new pilot they would get base training - essentially circuits in an empty aircraft. If you're transferring type and the organisation is certified for Zero Flight Time (ZFT) then you can skip the base detail and go straight into line training, but you must have operated a similiar type. 

Line training, to my knowledge, is always done on the line. Whilst the Type Rating covers technical aspects and failures, the purpose of line training is to train and observe the normal operation, hence it's always done on normal commercial flights with passengers. You might do one single 'full flight' in the simulator during the type rating without any failures, but that's not really the point of it. 

I don't know the requirements for trainers in regard to how often they need to observe various flights to maintain their license (as I'm not one). That said, there are none-line trainers at lots of companies, who never see a real flight - and their license is maintained.

As for the different between a consumer sim and the full motion, it really is a world of difference in regards to the confidence an instructor can have when signing you off. Beyond the difference in accuracy (which is collossal, down to the perfect resistance of the controls/trim etc) - the motion induces another layer of complexity and capacity-suck which just isn't present in a consumer sim. I'm sure it's common knowledge but the modules/controls from most 'Level D' sims can be transplanted into a real aircraft and they'd work just fine. 

I don't think I've particularly answered your question, but some might find the rambling interesting.

Same at my operator.  Type ratings and single pilot cert, recurrent and differences/recurrent are done at the sims.  After that you're released in to the IEC/(IOE) program and must be pared with a IEC captain for your gate 1 then a gate 2 (after X hours) before you're released for all operations to fly with anyone.  I think our pilots go every 6 months back to the sims, which most flights are done at night so you maintain night currency as well as stuff like special airports (KASE), etc., among the other usual stuff.

1 minute ago, ahsmatt7 said:

I will say this, flying the sim is much harder than the real plane. It's way to sensitive on the controls

Go into the controls menu and set the sensitivity lower.

I've been wondering what a real pilot would find by doing that, so report back if you do it.

Thanks
Hook

GENTLEMEN!!! (and any LADIES as well)

I've just wasted 40 minutes of my time removing entirely too much quoting!!!

PLEASE either highlight some text in the post you are quoting or manually trim the excessive quoted text before posting your reply.

Many of our members have data caps, and many are using smart phones and/or tablets to access AVSIM. Please be considerate of them.

Thank you in advance.

8 minutes ago, LHookins said:

Go into the controls menu and set the sensitivity lower.

I've been wondering what a real pilot would find by doing that, so report back if you do it.

Thanks
Hook

I was talking about my company's level-d sim we use for training. I wish I could tinker with those things! That would be a ton of fun.

I wish I had access to the beta. Rest assured though, when I get my hands on the new sim, I'll be writing a report on here.