You all lose, I learnt to fly in one of these:

 

 

On 8/19/2020 at 11:58 AM, FlyBaby said:

Complain all you want...no Dev is going to match what MSFS has done...

Haha. We'll see about that. MSFS is beautiful, but it also has a lot of flaws, because it is so new. I have faith that LM and LR aren't sitting around on their collective duffs. The initial wave of enthusiasm regarding MSFS has given way to reality. Asobo has done a terrific job but they still have a lot of work to do.

Edited October 21, 20205 yr by jabloomf1230

On 8/19/2020 at 10:45 AM, RudyB24 said:

Why not? This is supposed to be the greatest flight sim release since 15 years. This is exactly what I would expect it to do, to simulate an airliner with high fidelity.

Then you're entirely unrealistic in your expectations. Airliners are very complicated to simulate, with very extensive systems far beyond even the ones you visually see in the cockpit, and you think you're going to get 2 of them (each with completely different systems and behaviors that would have to be developed from scratch), plus an entire sim and a bunch of other planes, for less than the price of a pair of Nikes?

I have no doubt that Asobo could have targeted PMDG-level development for their airliners, but the sim would have to have cost quite a bit more. Probably, optimistically, closer to 200 bucks. And then all the people who have no interest in flying airliners would have complained (rightfully so) that they're having to pay a whole lot more because of something they'll never use. 

 

 

59 minutes ago, jabloomf1230 said:

Haha. We'll see about that. MSFS is beautiful, but it also has a lot of flaws, because it is so new.

Wrong....MSFS has a store, reaping revenue from the many 3P Devs / addons that will continue to expand the offerings. That revenue will help to ensure further development, fixes etc.

 

1 hour ago, jabloomf1230 said:

 I have faith that LM and LR aren't sitting around on their collective duffs.

You can have faith, but LM and LR do not have a store, a sufficient user base, or 3P Devs that warrants / supports any big advances. What have they done over the past 5 years?...nothing...and now they have even "less" incentive to do anything more.

1 hour ago, jabloomf1230 said:

The initial wave of enthusiasm regarding MSFS has given way to reality. Asobo has done a terrific job but they still have a lot of work to do.

Reality...let's see. MSFS started with a "little" trailer that grew into a firestorm. From there, they engaged with the community, engaged with 3P Devs, built the best...yes...the best flight simulator to date. They have a store to ensure continued revenue, and a freeware support community that has developed close to 1,000 addons (scenery, airports, liveries, utilities etc.) in just 2 months of the release.

The enthusiasm is growing stronger...that is the reality.

 

On 8/19/2020 at 11:15 AM, regis9 said:

 

 

Great post. I completely agree. Getting new people involved will lift all boats in time. XBox compatibility is key to this, and us old timers need to have a little patience (myself included). MS/AS have to prioritize patches/features to make sure MSFS is successful on both platforms to ensure that the title is sustainable.

On 8/19/2020 at 1:05 PM, AllRed said:

Haha, great post. I was thinking similar the other day, how you get the old fart, snobby core of members who snarl and stare at anyone under the age of 40 for having the temerity to be on THEIR golf course, I mean how dare we. 😄

Although in my experience its the older groups that are the slowest, I die a little inside when I see a fourball of 70 year olds in front. 😩

I have frequently seen references to "old cranky boomers" on other platforms (Reddit, for example). In this context, referring to individuals ad "old farts" is pejorative. I know this wasn't intended that way, but to an older person reading this, it may come off that way. Think about it from the standpoint of a 60+ pilot who had been grounded for medical reasons and FS is their only remaining option. For years, those individuals have been contributing to this hobby, and there are a number of them here at AVSIM. Have a bit of empathy. Unlike Reddit, there really are people from all age groups at AVSIM (and Flightsim.com, I suppose). That's what makes this hobby so special - it transcends generations. In the end, I think this is a two way street.

28 minutes ago, eslader said:

Then you're entirely unrealistic in your expectations. Airliners are very complicated to simulate, with very extensive systems far beyond even the ones you visually see in the cockpit, and you think you're going to get 2 of them (each with completely different systems and behaviors that would have to be developed from scratch), plus an entire sim and a bunch of other planes, for less than the price of a pair of Nikes?

These expectations often seem to me to be a type of Extortion/Blackmail on the part of the community.

"Give us super-expensive pay-ware level stuff as part of the package, or we'll go on a massive tear online and trash your reputation."

No, we don't care that each one of the pay-ware planes that we expect you to hand over for free usually is a multi-year investment of time from developers dedicated to that single craft until its completion, nor do we care that said planes often cost as much or more than the entire sim we are complaining about.

We also don't care that these are already the most detailed default planes ever.

Nope.

We absolutely demand (pauses to think of a number) Ten! Yes, ten or more near top of the line pay-ware quality planes as the default aircraft in your upcoming sim, or we'll yell to anyone who'll listen that you're cheaters, smell bad, and say mean things to your cats!!

Also, when our usual suppliers go out of business because nobody is buying their stuff anymore (why should we, when we can get it for free now) we'll complain about that as well.

(Because obviously that would be entirely Asobos fault, the wankers!)

On 8/19/2020 at 11:45 AM, RudyB24 said:

Why not? This is supposed to be the greatest flight sim release since 15 years. This is exactly what I would expect it to do, to simulate an airliner with high fidelity.

Have you ever driven an F1 race car?  From what I hear tell, it's one of the toughest things you can do.  The beast is easy to stall and you have no traction until the tires heat up, which, BTW requires you to go faster than most people feel comfortable doing. 

Richard Hammond, a former presenter for Top Gear, spent hours trying to successfully get one around the track just once.  And his skills as a driver eclipse my own by an order of magnitude.  His problem was he lacked the self confidence to go fast enough to get the tires hot.  How crazy is that?  A man who almost died piloting a rocket car, was too scared to take an F1 car to speeds high enough to provide him with adequate traction. 

How many racing games do you think accurately represent what is necessary for you to successfully drive an F1 car.  And if one was created with near 100% fidelity, who would buy it?  It takes YEARS to learn how to do it, in lesser cars.

So how long does it take to get your ATP?  How long does it take to get type certified on a 737?  An A320?  How many people are interested in making that investment in time?

I do NOT expect a consumer flight simulator to simulate an airliner with high fidelity.  To the contrary, I expect some of the more complex systems to be simplified so that I don't have to spend countless hours learning just how to do an engine startup or program the FMC.

A while back there was a game that basically simulated every system on the Space Shuttle,  It was a huge failure.  It was too complex.  It was a switch simulator, nothing more.  I expect Flight simulators to make me feel like I'm flying an airliner,  not make me feel that I have to spend hours of training to do so.

 

Edited October 21, 20205 yr by wthomas33065
Richard Hammond story added

3 minutes ago, duckbilled said:

I have frequently seen references to "old cranky boomers" on other platforms (Reddit, for example). In this context, referring to individuals ad "old farts" is pejorative. I know this wasn't intended that way, but to an older person reading this, it may come off that way.

In forums where gamers and anyone that does not apparently wear a metaphorical captains uniform while flying is routinely referred/implied to as being too stupid to be capable of understanding the intricacies of flight bestowed to the elder brethren, and where phrases such as dumbed down, X-box, kiddies and numerous other inconsiderate pejoratives are used so often within the community that apparently many don't even see how ugly and offensive those are, its honestly kind of hard to feel too broken up when the sentiments are returned.

43 minutes ago, FlyBaby said:

Wrong....MSFS has a store, reaping revenue from the many 3P Devs / addons that will continue to expand the offerings. That revenue will help to ensure further development, fixes etc.

How much have bought from the MS Store? I've bought zero other than the sim itself. But I've bought high quality add-on airports for MSFS directly from developers such as FSDT, Flightbeam and LVFR. Why pay MS for someone else's hard work? Having a "store" is no big advantage. Besides didn't at least a few people buy the Steam version of MSFS? Is that not equivalent? Isn't XP on Steam? 

You're entire post so so soaked in love for MSFS that it's not even worth a response. 

I think some people ought to realise that it is possible to be into computer games and into flight simulators at the same time.

I've got literally hundreds of computer games on Steam and elsewhere, and I play them frequently. In addition to this, I have loads of fancy payware aeroplanes for FSX, P3D, XPlane and DCS, plus other less popular sims including Condor etc.

The notion that if you are into computer games, you're bound to be some kind of Bill and Ted-esque moron in their early 20s who is incapable of understanding complex simulators, is preposterous.

I have the distinct feeling that this forum becomes a merry-go-round, except for the merry part.

17 minutes ago, Chock said:

I've got literally hundreds of computer games on Steam and elsewhere, and I play them frequently.

Same here. The stereotype of the lazy highschool dropout smoking dope and playing "vidya games" is as absurd as it is tired.

 

10 minutes ago, jabloomf1230 said:

You're entire post so so soaked in love for MSFS that it's not even worth a response. 

And yet....you responded.

"Soaked in love"? Naw just common sense and simple business logic.

11 minutes ago, jabloomf1230 said:

How much have bought from the MS Store? I've bought zero other than the sim itself. But I've bought high quality add-on airports for MSFS directly from developers such as FSDT, Flightbeam and LVFR. Why pay MS for someone else's hard work?

 

You can use the reviews in the MSFS store to gauge (avg purchase to review ratio) how many people are buying in the store...that is an easy enough task. Let me know what you find out...

 

20 minutes ago, jabloomf1230 said:

Why pay MS for someone else's hard work? Having a "store" is no big advantage.

It is a big advantage for MSFS...or else, they wouldn't have it. And given how fast Orbx and others have been putting their products on the store (some on release day)...it must be an advantage for them as well (you know, tapping the MSFS oil well for those who prefer one stop shopping) Again, simple business logic.

In addition to the next generation sim, MSFS has a "business & revenue generating model" that supersedes LM & LR. That...is the reality.

46 minutes ago, Chock said:

I think some people ought to realise that it is possible to be into computer games and into flight simulators at the same time.

I've got literally hundreds of computer games on Steam and elsewhere, and I play them frequently. In addition to this, I have loads of fancy payware aeroplanes for FSX, P3D, XPlane and DCS, plus other less popular sims including Condor etc.

The notion that if you are into computer games, you're bound to be some kind of Bill and Ted-esque moron in their early 20s who is incapable of understanding complex simulators, is preposterous.

I am sad it took me 3 pages to get to this wonderful post.  That is how I feel every time someone tries to insult people who enjoy a simulator (regardless of which one) as an entertainment.

2 hours ago, HiFlyer said:

In forums where gamers and anyone that does not apparently wear a metaphorical captains uniform while flying is routinely referred/implied to as being too stupid to be capable of understanding the intricacies of flight bestowed to the elder brethren, and where phrases such as dumbed down, X-box, kiddies and numerous other inconsiderate pejoratives are used so often within the community that apparently many don't even see how ugly and offensive those are, its honestly kind of hard to feel too broken up when the sentiments are returned.

As I said, it goes both ways. Reddit and other outlets aside, perhaps we can start being respectful here?

I'm 49 and that's ancient by Reddit standards. I'm not sure a lot of 60+ ex pilots are hanging out on Reddit. That's what I'm pointing out. When people get snippy on either side, they should think about it as if they are talking to their grandparent or grandchild.In reality, there isn't any one side. We all have something in common and that is what we need to remember.