10 hours ago, mjrhealth said:

That depends XPLANE is  A SIMULATOR not a game though many wish it was, the other is a game filled with pretty colours, but honestly when im flying i dont even consider mostly the things people are so mad about, ATC and weather with rain is all that matters but thats all secondary to flight model.

Firstly, sorry to say this, but X-Plane is similarly just a game for most of us. I enjoy training myself for both normal and non-normal operations, but it doesn't change the fact that it's just serious gaming. After all most of us are not using it to log real-world hours using our FAA-approved hardware.

Also, just wondering, what makes the "other" a game and X-Plane a REAL ACTUAL SIMULATOR™️, assuming that you used "game" as a derogatory term to mention it's not realistic in terms of flight simulation aspects?

Lack of add-ons? Given that people have been comparing payware X-Plane add-ons to default MSFS airliners, I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case.

However, what exactly do add-ons a simulator has right now have to do with it being realistic or not?

This makes as much sense as saying X-Plane is just an eye candy game compared to Prepar3D just because PMDG 737 is more realistic than default X-Plane 737, PMDG 747 is more realistic than default X-Plane 747, PMDG 777 is more realistic than Flight Factor 777, QualityWings 787 is more realistic than Magknight 787, FSLabs A320 is more realistic than both ToLiSS and Flight Factor Airbuses, Leonardo MD-80 is more realistic than Rotate MD-80, Majestic Q400 is more realistic than FlyJSim Q400 Legacy, A2A offerings are more realistic than their corresponding X-Plane offerings and so on.

Edited January 23, 20215 yr by BiologicalNanobot

4 minutes ago, BiologicalNanobot said:

Also, just wondering, what makes the "other" a game and X-Plane a REAL ACTUAL SIMULATOR

The longer we discuss this, the less certain I am about possible definitions.

Even a real Level-D simulator could be classified as a game (since it does not feature a lot of the real things that one would experience when flying a real aircraft).

On the other scale even GTA V could be considered a "simulator" as it portrays certain aspects of flying a helicopter or airplane correctly.

Where is the boundary? Is it the way people use it? Fun vs training? But training can be fun! And you can certainly train certain aspects of flying in GTA 5 (don´t fly into the side of a mountain, it hurts!).

So I am really at a loss. What can be agreed upon maybe is that one game offers better options for certain styles/regimes of flying. Helicopters? X-Plane. VFR navigation? MSFS.

It depends what you look for. And as long as X-Plane caters better to certain desires than MSFS, it will have customers.

Lets also not forget that there also is big overlap between the two offings. Any serious flight-simulator afficionado will likely get both - if only to compare and then ultimately decide which one to use primarily. To Laminar it doesn´t matter if you never even download X-Plane after you purchase it. Well, knowing them it does, but not financially.

For third-party it is a bit different. At first glance it seems simple - more users for MSFS = more sales = more profit.

But I think we will see an effect (look at the discussion about price for the new F15) where prices for MSFS addons will go down. It is called competition. Great profits attract more competition which lowers prices which lowers profits - until an equilibrium is found. The net profit for sales in MSFS will be the same as for X-Plane, but prices for X-Plane addons will stay higher (and the users dedicated to the style of X-Plane´s flying and operation will be willing to pay it).

26 minutes ago, Janov said:

The longer we discuss this, the less certain I am about possible definitions.

Even a real Level-D simulator could be classified as a game (since it does not feature a lot of the real things that one would experience when flying a real aircraft).

On the other scale even GTA V could be considered a "simulator" as it portrays certain aspects of flying a helicopter or airplane correctly.

Where is the boundary? Is it the way people use it? Fun vs training? But training can be fun! And you can certainly train certain aspects of flying in GTA 5 (don´t fly into the side of a mountain, it hurts!).

Indeed, definitions are quite blurry at this point. I started to call anything not legally loggable (in terms of flight hours) "serious gaming", but obviously everyone has different definitions. However, I've had clarified possible definitions others in this thread might've used in the parts you cut out from the quote.

Returning to the topic, I'm quite excited for the next X-Plane. All I want from Laminar Research is more realistic weather simulation (not depiction) and a weather radar API, so I can finally train myself for windshear in peace. Also, I'd happily take some improvements to flight model, especially for trans-sonic and supersonic flight.

Rest is not Laminar Research's responsibility, but add-on developers' responsibility. I'm not too happy with currently available airliner add-ons for X-Plane, other than a few exceptions but I'm sure that developers will step up their games.

Others like realistic weather depiction, realistic ground scenery, realistic lighting etc. would be really really nice and make X-Plane delightful, but I guess I could live without them, unlike the things I've mentioned above.

Edited January 23, 20215 yr by BiologicalNanobot

15 hours ago, BiologicalNanobot said:

many people (even without overclocking) are reporting problems

I think, potentially this has been tracked down

To windows 7

As a primarily GA flying both flight dynamics and the view out the window are important to me.

Basically, I want to have the simulator be as real as it can get. Flight simulators have taught me how to fly and I keep learning stuff, all good.  But....

I recall, many many years back, getting into a discussion about Orbx Regions, when they first came out, saying something like "at the current rate, it will be XXX years before they could cover the world, but before this happens technology will have long past existing capabilities, therefore we will never see much completed."  And guess what, I was correct.

So, here we are, XP11.5+ is a great sim, but hugely deficient in the out the window stuff, we have poor clouds, poor ATC, poor environmental stuff, trees made of two right angle planes...and onward, all listed in the feedback page.

LR needs to hire more folks, needs to get this stuff done and fast, MF20 has shown us a new approach that has the out the window stuff is possible.  I'm now in year three of XP11 and have had to buy tons of addons and d/l tons of freeware to enhance the out the window stuff to make it "reasonable" in today's technological world.

I say, pick up the pace, charge me $100 or $200 whatever but I want this stuff upgraded before I die!

Good gravy I pay $50 a plane no issue, I buy and airport $30-60 no problem.  Heck a round of golf for a couple hrs entertainment is $80+.

Bryan

2 hours ago, 1st fltsimguy said:

had to buy tons of addons and d/l tons of freeware to enhance the out the window stuff to make it "reasonable" in today's technological world.

I have not purchased any scenery just SMP and the freeware terrain, peopel want XPLANe to be better than the real world I suppose developers should charge 3miilion for a plane to reflect that and every time you fuel a plane its charged to your credit card, than it will as real as it gets, and when you crash your plane you loose your serial number and have to buy a new one, than peopel will complain because it too real. If you are not happy now you never will be as you will just keep moving the marker

57 minutes ago, mjrhealth said:

I have not purchased any scenery just SMP and the freeware terrain, peopel want XPLANe to be better than the real world I suppose developers should charge 3miilion for a plane to reflect that and every time you fuel a plane its charged to your credit card, than it will as real as it gets, and when you crash your plane you loose your serial number and have to buy a new one, than peopel will complain because it too real. If you are not happy now you never will be as you will just keep moving the marker

Use of the pronoun "you" I believe "you" doesn't mean me specifically but rather in a broad context. A critical review is not necessarily complaining.  There will never be an end to "wanting the sims to be better".

So here's the deal.

I use to own an Atari 400, then 800, then 1200, then ibm 286, then 386, then 486, then I can't remember, then i7-6700, video cards many, recently upgraded from GTX970 to GTX1080Ti....and flew SubLogic onward through every version.

In my view I replaced them all because of newer, better, faster and what that meant in terms of my productivity software, like making and compiling movies, and of course evolving flight simulators.  This will never stop, its inevitable.

I started XP with 10, then 11.0 three years ago, and the myriad of versions to this date.  Three years is actually a long time with regard to software development and computer capabilities.  I read about the folks enamored with MSFS2020 and they run out and spend many $1,000s on new computers, VR, highest end video cards, just do they can have the best flightsim experience.

What I'm saying is that after three years of XP11, there have been little or no improvements to the base sim "out the window" most of those have been gained through payware and freeware.  My view now is that LR should step up to the table on some of these things as they are years ago outstanding.

To improve my XP11+experience I purchased two 8TB HD's and have pulled down and made my own massive ortho scenery with overlays.

Edited January 23, 20215 yr by 1st fltsimguy

@1st fltsimguy LR normally make some fixes and adjustments to the eye candy per X-Plane version.  The big, meaty stuff that gets done through a version run is the internals.  Flight model fixes, performance overhauls (aka Vulkan/Metal), etc...

They've let it be known that they have taken on more staff, particularly someone tasked to overhaul scenery for the next version.  I've also gotten word about some other very cool eye candy features that would be considered a first for a flight sim.  Obviously, I can't say what it is, but it's pretty major.  Also, the weather will be getting an overhaul.  

Edited January 24, 20215 yr by GoranM

20 minutes ago, GoranM said:

@1st fltsimguy LR normally make some fixes and adjustments to the eye candy per X-Plane version.  The big, meaty stuff that gets done through a version run is the internals.  Flight model fixes, performance overhauls (aka Vulkan/Metal), etc...

They've let it be known that they have taken on more staff, particularly someone tasked to overhaul scenery for the next version.  I've also gotten word about some other very cool eye candy features that would be considered a first for a flight sim.  Obviously, I can't say what it is, but it's pretty major.  Also, the weather will be getting an overhaul.  

Bring it on!

2 hours ago, GoranM said:

They've let it be known that they have taken on more staff, particularly someone tasked to overhaul scenery for the next version.  I've also gotten word about some other very cool eye candy features that would be considered a first for a flight sim.  Obviously, I can't say what it is, but it's pretty major.  Also, the weather will be getting an overhaul.  

There will always be a divide between MSFS and XP because XP will not ever have (streaming) real world ortho scenery, unless there is the mother of all announcements and a company like Google is buying into XP, but the chances of that happening are almost zero. So the future will always be land class scenery representation, and with 3rd party generated ortho, in specific areas.  XP could potentially have more close up detail with procedural generation, mentioned above, but that is a big question, and somehow I doubt it's going to happen anytime soon.  The best thing that XP fans can hope for in the future is that LR wins some government contract(s), or they merge with a bigger company, and they then have a bigger budget to spend on graphics coders who can rework the engine and bring it up to speed.

Edited January 24, 20215 yr by Greazer

1 hour ago, Greazer said:

There will always be a divide between MSFS and XP because XP will not ever have (streaming) real world ortho scenery, unless there is the mother of all announcements and a company like Google is buying into XP, but the chances of that happening are almost zero. So the future will always be land class scenery representation, and with 3rd party generated ortho, in specific areas.  XP could potentially have more close up detail with procedural generation, mentioned above, but that is a big question, and somehow I doubt it's going to happen anytime soon.  The best thing that XP fans can hope for in the future is that LR wins some government contract(s), or they merge with a bigger company, and they then have a bigger budget to spend on graphics coders who can rework the engine and bring it up to speed.

Oh I see another MS$ flight sim in the works, who cares about flight model make it pretty so gamers will buy it... people fail to realise all investors want is return could care a hoot about those who use there products, Glad laminar are not playing that game. Well see how much more MS$ is willing to put into it before there investors start demanding returns. Happy with where Laminar are going but than im from the old school.

1 hour ago, Greazer said:

There will always be a divide between MSFS and XP because XP will not ever have (streaming) real world ortho scenery, unless there is the mother of all announcements and a company like Google is buying into XP, but the chances of that happening are almost zero. So the future will always be land class scenery representation, and with 3rd party generated ortho, in specific areas.  XP could potentially have more close up detail with procedural generation, mentioned above, but that is a big question, and somehow I doubt it's going to happen anytime soon.  The best thing that XP fans can hope for in the future is that LR wins some government contract(s), or they merge with a bigger company, and they then have a bigger budget to spend on graphics coders who can rework the engine and bring it up to speed.

Some of your points are valid , and I hope you pointing to things are not directed towards  XP11 as you will be in for a disappointment.  XP11 is over 

 

1 hour ago, HumptyDumpty said:

XP11 is over 

I think you mean XP10 is over.

XP11 only just got started.

4 hours ago, mSparks said:

I think you mean XP10 is over.

XP11 only just got started.

Nop.  the cycle of XP11 is almost to an end.  Unless they are planning a paid update to the current version which I don't think would be feasible

10 minutes ago, HumptyDumpty said:

Nop.  the cycle of XP11 is almost to an end.  Unless they are planning a paid update to the current version which I don't think would be feasible

I doubt it, xplane 11 is the test bed for 12, they wont go into 12 til they are sure some thing work it would be very foolish of them to do so, Vulkan still has more work though its really good as it is