X-Aviation licensing Issue - Disappointing Support

[LRBS 948]

3 hours ago, 1st fltsimguy said:

FYI there was not computer upgrade in my case.

I'm sorry but you the one who said this " I tried to upgrade my system from Win7 to Win10 a few weeks back. ".

On the other note, I witnessed overprotected software to the extremes where even on the same computer (not formatting or trying to install a new OS) just switching hyperthreading from on to off will trigger to unregister other software.

The bottom line here is that sometimes the honest people pay the price for the hackers and nothing stops them from wrongdoing. 

Now customer service is another sore point for many.

[mikealpha 266]

31 minutes ago, killthespam said:

The bottom line here is that sometimes the honest people pay the price for the hackers and nothing stops them from wrongdoing.

Exactly that should not happen. DRM is understandable, but you have to find a balance between fighting pirates and punishing honest customers or let them suffer from it. X-Aviation completely disregards the second part. I had only the IXEG737NG and Saab 340 installed a while ago, and if you are using Xplane only occasionally or change hardware in an attempt to optimize XPlane, you'll face X-Aviation a lot. It is WAY over the top. I got that much nerved, I even stopped using XPlane two years ago.

Reading this thread I'm glad I did. Geez, honest customers might only have spare time at the weekend for flying. Letting them wait three days to get a product running again, that's a no-go !

So, DRM, no doubt it is necessary. But that much over the top, no thank you. Some publishers make it themselves far too easy by making statements like "blame the pirates for it". 

If it leads to loosing honest customers, something can't be right.

Mike

Edited February 6, 2021 by mikealpha

[Janov 2,383]

31 minutes ago, mikealpha said:

I even stopped using XPlane two years ago.

You sure must miss it a lot if you keep browsing this forum two years after not using X-Plane anymore 😂🙄

[mikealpha 266]

4 minutes ago, Janov said:

You sure must miss it a lot if you keep browsing this forum two years after not using X-Plane anymore 😂🙄

no, not really, I just came across it by accident in the New Topics list 😉

Edited February 6, 2021 by mikealpha

[mSparks 2,086]

8 minutes ago, killthespam said:

nothing stops them from wrongdoing.

Ever since the "NoCD" days of SecuRom its been easier to just used cracked versions of stuff that has such ridiculous ideas included in it than the originals. I just stopped using and buying anything like that rather than have to resort to searching sketchy websites to use stuff I'd paid good money for.

12 minutes ago, killthespam said:

Now customer service is another sore point for many.

Even the microsofties knew better than to try this nonsense

yet a few B team developers continue to think they can do better than some of the worlds highest paid and best minds, then get cranky on their actual customers when it doesn't work out like they expected. It'd be funny if it wasn't so sad. 

This sort of thang was also one of many reasons I switched to console for gaming.

Hopefully during the XP2021 run we can get a decent licencing system provided by Laminar.

[GoranM 3,764]

1 hour ago, mikealpha said:

DRM is understandable, but you have to find a balance between fighting pirates and punishing honest customers or let them suffer from it.

DRM is code.  Not something with flawless judgement.  We have found a balance.  That balance is its ease of use.  An email and password every 6 months.  New PC or OS?  You're allowed 3 activations, with pop ups that walk you through the process.  

Do you have a lock on your house?  Do you lock your car when you don't drive it?  You're using DRM.

Remember that for every add on that is shared, it has to come from a paying customer that we trust to do the right thing.  

1 hour ago, mikealpha said:

I had only the IXEG737NG and Saab 340 installed a while ago, and if you are using Xplane only occasionally or change hardware in an attempt to optimize XPlane, you'll face X-Aviation a lot.

Seriously??  You're required to enter an email and password once every 6 months.  Change hardware?  Email and password.  If I clean out my internet cache, I have to enter my email and password in every single account I have for everything else that is web based.  I do online banking, and I can safely say, I want as much DRM to secure my account as possible.  I don't care how many hoops I have to jump through.  I really don't understand how much easier we can make it, short of just getting rid of the DRM.

1 hour ago, mikealpha said:

I got that much nerved, I even stopped using XPlane two years ago.

In that case, I'm glad you represent the minority.  

1 hour ago, mikealpha said:

Reading this thread I'm glad I did. Geez, honest customers might only have spare time at the weekend for flying. Letting them wait three days to get a product running again, that's a no-go !

You obviously didn't read what I posted earlier, or the support page at X-Aviation.  So I'll post it again...

"We will reply as soon as we are able and will endeavor to reply within 3 days, but usually quicker."

Hopefully you can understand what that reads.

1 hour ago, mikealpha said:

So, DRM, no doubt it is necessary. But that much over the top, no thank you. Some publishers make it themselves far too easy by making statements like "blame the pirates for it". 

Who else is to blame?  I've seen developers go out of business because of weak DRM.  

1 hour ago, mikealpha said:

If it leads to loosing honest customers, something can't be right.

Remember what I said earlier?  

"Remember that for every add on that is shared, it has to come from a paying customer that we trust to do the right thing."

A few years ago, some XA add ons were shared by an X-Plane developer.  This was someone I trusted in the dev community.  

You're free to express your opinion, of course.  But I can safely say you're in that 1%< of people that disagree with how we run things.

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by GoranM

[Janov 2,383]

Well, I can only add that we as developer (IXEG 737 here) are absolutely happy with the implementation of DRM that Gizmo and X-Aviation offers to us. In a perfect world there would be no need for it - but guess what...

We fully understand that some customers refrain from purchasing our products because of DRM - just like some refrain from purchasing because they think the price is too high. It is an optimization problem, and we feel that we are near the optimum.

We are also happy with the support that Cameron provides at X-Aviation - sure, he could hire 20 guys to run support 24/7 and achieve turnaround of <5 minutes... but we would have to slap that bill onto the price of our software 😉.

The vast majority of customers have no problems licensing and activating their DRM - I actually run the very same DRM on my development copy of the IXEG 737 and I have it set up so that it automatically updates the license without even notifiying me. I run the 737 on several computers and tracking and updating machine ID´s is just as straightforward.

I realize that computer skills vary wildly, and I have no doubt that my mother would have problems with the DRM of X-Aviation. Those would never manifest, though, because she wouldn´t be able to install X-Plane in the first place 😋.

Some folks run into strange problems as well, and I think it is acceptable to have to wait for a day or two until someone helps you get out of that problem. All things considered, the vast majority of those problems are also something that the customer got wrong (installation, hardware, firewall, internet connectivity...), it is almost never a problem with the software from X-Aviation itself.

Edited February 6, 2021 by Janov

[mjrhealth 820]

1 hour ago, killthespam said:

I'm sorry but you the one who said this " I tried to upgrade my system from Win7 to Win10 a few weeks back. ".

On the other note, I witnessed overprotected software to the extremes where even on the same computer (not formatting or trying to install a new OS) just switching hyperthreading from on to off will trigger to unregister other software.

The bottom line here is that sometimes the honest people pay the price for the hackers and nothing stops them from wrongdoing. 

Now customer service is another sore point for many.

I did an update from win7 to win 10 on old machine, re registration went fine. than i purchased new machine, copied existing install of xpalne onto it re registration went fine, deleted old machine from list and im all good, it isnt the system annoying as it is.

[mjrhealth 820]

10 minutes ago, GoranM said:

Do you have a lock on your house?  Do you lock your car when you don't drive it?  You're using DRM.

Apparently one upon a time people used to leave there keys in the car and the doors of the house open, boy has the world changed

[Janov 2,383]

1 minute ago, mjrhealth said:

and the doors of the house open

...but the wife would still be there next morning... 😂

[GoranM 3,764]

3 minutes ago, mjrhealth said:

Apparently one upon a time people used to leave there keys in the car and the doors of the house open, boy has the world changed

Oh I know.  In my parents country, it was very much like that.  However, without DRM, think of how easy it is to share files.  And when someone tries to share my products, that's like taking money out of my own pocket.  I wonder how @mikealpha would feel if someone just took his wallet out of his back pocket, took out half his money, then threw the wallet away.  I mean, a wallet in a back pocket SHOULD be relatively secure...short of carrying around a portable safe. I have a feeling his attitude towards DRM would change.

Edited February 6, 2021 by GoranM

[mjrhealth 820]

5 minutes ago, Janov said:

..but the wife would still be there next morning... 😂

That was back than...🥺

[mikealpha 266]

My remarks were meant as feedback, even if from a former customer.

DRM in this extend might feel OK for some, for me it didn't. So take it or leave it, as you did. 

I don't know what to make with this "real world examples". If I change the tires of my car, would I have to call or walk to my dealer to reactivate my key to even enter the car again? And the dealer would tell me, sorry we had to do that due to all the thefts out there? 

[Cameron XA 272]

24 minutes ago, mikealpha said:

My remarks were meant as feedback, even if from a former customer.

DRM in this extend might feel OK for some, for me it didn't. So take it or leave it, as you did. 

I don't know what to make with this "real world examples". If I change the tires of my car, would I have to call or walk to my dealer to reactivate my key to even enter the car again? And the dealer would tell me, sorry we had to do that due to all the thefts out there? 

I don't know what experience you've had in the past, but the X-Aviation DRM is made to be as non obtrusive as possible. It's possible you only experienced the old system, but two years ago this current one was in place.
 

Theoretically you should never have to contact us. That's true for pretty much 99% of our customers. The system is designed to even allow a customer to de-authorize their own machine when they hit a limit, and immediately authorize a new one, all without ever interacting with us. Instant gratification.
 

In fact, the only time you really would need to interact with us at this point is when sharing is involved and the system catches attempts of multiple accounts in use, or you are suddenly trying to activate a machine you previously opted to lock out on the de-authorize menu.
 

Otherwise, it really is autopilot. Buy a product, enter email and password, done. It will even auto re-authorize without your interaction for you. The only time it won't is if you purchase/update a new product, or you have not used X-Plane in a 14 day window. In that situation you'll need to re-enter your email and password again.

Edited February 6, 2021 by Cameron XA

[mikealpha 266]

3 hours ago, Cameron XA said:

or you have not used X-Plane in a 14 day window. In that situation you'll need to re-enter your email and password again.

Thanks for the explanation. But what is the purpose of that, other than let honest and  occasional XPlane users  confirm over and over again they are not a theft. 

That's exactly what I got, besides after every small hardware change I need to go through that "I'm not a theft" again, and at some point I got fed up. 

I have purchased roughly 200 Addons in the last five years and you are the only publisher doing it to that extend. 

Mike

Edited February 6, 2021 by mikealpha