May 21, 20215 yr Author 3 hours ago, birdguy said: Well there goes a half hour of my life I'll never see again. I didn't watch it all. All it proves ad infinitum is that the old woman believes what she saw and she is not making it up or lying. I don't doubt she does believe what she saw. But what was it she did see? To answer that question you would have to waste even more of your precious time. There are two more videos regarding this encounter. Where they interrogate a guy who also saw this same UFO at the time. In fact they interview his mother too that also had the experience. The guy, who was a child at the time, believed he was abducted. The mother, lost consciousness during the encounter and found herself at home, driven there by the grandmother who was also in the car that woke first. The conclusion is that all of the witnesses were truthful and not lying. They encountered a large round object, metallic, with a band around the middle. They also encountered a large white ball of light and also a third craft. So yes, a clearly defined craft of some kind. There were numerous people that witnessed the Berkshires incident. Quote It does not in any way prove extraterrestrials or their vehicles are cruising around in our air space. I didn't say it did. Now if you would like to waste some more of your time, let me know and I'll link you to what I would say is pretty interesting stuff regarding this incident, regarding people who SAY they have had amazing encounters during this incident and have been determined to be truthful by the behaviour experts.
May 21, 20215 yr Author 13 hours ago, birdguy said: I don't know. Do you? Yes, or at least I can use common sense and give it a VERY high probability. Quote Flying in space is not like flying in an atmosphere, especially a strange one. No, its not, its a thousand times harder. And flying at relativistic velocities, fast enough to get here, is a million times harder and as far as our scientist are concerned may not be possible. I think you aren't grasping just how incredibly difficult (possibly impossible) such a task is. If you think super advanced aliens that can do what many humans regard as impossible, would be fooled by a bit of wind sheer or lightning and just crash, you are not appreciating what it takes to get here from many lightyears away. Quote Severe thunderstorms are not something you want to fly into or even near. Up drafts and down drafts and golf ball size hailstones in our atmosphere may not be what they have trained for in their atmosphere. An neither have we. We just avoid them because they are so dangerous. I seriously doubt an advanced alien race would just dive randomly into an atmosphere with no idea what they were encountering. I seriously doubt an advanced alien race, who had some kind of weird vulnerability to basic atmospheric effects, would do that either, they would be smart enough to scan the atmosphere first and either not regard "weather" as an issue or avoid anything that might be an issue. We would assume that our alien friends, or their autonomous technology, would not be as thick as two short planks. Quote You are assuming the best and seem to be convinced these supermen never make mistakes. Its a pretty obvious and logical assumption that aliens wouldn't be morons and that they would be capable scanning first, understanding our weather and either ignoring it or avoiding it. Super advanced technology isn't garbage and it doesn't crash because of a bit of lightning or wind sheer. To suggest that WE can detect and avoid such things but that the aliens are morons and don't check and cant avoid it, and that their super advanced tech is so pathetic a bit of lightning and wind sheer destroys it, but traveling at superluminal velocities and all the physics defying stuff that entails is possible for them is just bizarre. Quote You may be right. But there's an equal chance you may be wrong. No, logic is logic. There's minuscule chance I'm wrong, its called common sense. Edited May 21, 20215 yr by martin-w
May 21, 20215 yr Author 4 hours ago, birdguy said: How do you know it was Project Mogul? We've already discussed Project Mogul in this thread, more than once. I have already told you why I believe it was project mogul. You have also missed out my second sentence in your quote, where I say... IN MY OPINION!" Its not definitive. Quote Early Project Mogul devices were lifted with a cluster of weather balloons so it's entirely plausible that a Project Mogul would have resulted in weather balloon debris. Its also by far the most plausible explanation than flying saucers from another world. Quote Or it could have been regular weather balloon. Or it could have been a UFO. Precisely! But logically, what we do is consider probability. And the highest probability is project Mogul. Especially when it has been officially confirmed to be the case. Hence... why its the case IN MY OPINIION. Edited May 21, 20215 yr by martin-w
May 21, 20215 yr 4 hours ago, martin-w said: No, logic is logic. There's minuscule chance I'm wrong, its called common sense. I don't call it common sense, I call it wishful thinking. We don't even know if such beings even exist or if they do where they come from. Your wanting to believe colors your suppositions and your logic has traces of StarTrek in it. Who, what, why, where, how? Who are they? What do they want with people like us who would be so primitive to them. Historically we regarded primitive people as curiosities or slaves or people to convert to some religion. Why would they come here to the edge of the galaxy? Where do they come from? How do they get here? Maybe they are angels travelling here from heaven or hell? Given man's beliefs in so many gods that's just as logical. And wherever heaven and/or hell is do they need a mode of transportation? Sightings of things real or imagined or supposed is not hard evidence. The main difference between you and I is the wanting to believe. I have no desire to want to believe so many different kinds a descriptions of so many unexplained sightings unless there is physical evidence. You, on the other, hand, want to believe so badly so that anything unexplained in the sky are super intelligent beings. The only thing you haven't brought up yet are the cattle mutilations in Wyoming that could only have been done by some super intelligent beings from the stars. That's the closest thing to physical evidence I have ever heard or read about. Noel The tires are worn. The shocks are shot. The steering is wobbly. But the engine still runs fine.
May 21, 20215 yr Author 2 hours ago, birdguy said: I don't call it common sense, I call it wishful thinking. I do find debating things with you frustrating at times, its like you argue both for and against the alien hypothesis for the sake of it, just to disagree. How can it be "wishful thinking"? I wish for nothing. The HYPOTHETICAL argument here is that IF aliens are visiting us, would they crash from a lightning storm. We are comparing our level of technology with a race that can come here with some kind of super advanced technology. I mean they can't do it any other way can they? By definition they would be many orders of magnitude more advanced than us. Quote We don't even know if such beings even exist or if they do where they come from. Huh... its a hypothetical discussion so irrelevant. Does your version of common sense really tell you that they wouldn't notice a very bad weather system and would just dive into the atmosphere and not bother to avoid it if it was a danger to them? Really? And does you version of common sense tell you that immensely advanced technology would have an issue with such a weather system? Quote Your wanting to believe colors your suppositions and your logic has traces of StarTrek in it. Who said I want to believe? I am impartial both ways, you would have noticed that if you read my replies. In this very thread I have argued against the ATFLIR footage and pointed out many times that we simply don't know the cause of these events. Some of it I've argued is most likely to be of natural origin and some of it I've argued is mysterious and should be investigated. Do you mean "wanting to believe" its not true? As in the Roswell incident was not a crashed craft due to lightning? Again, I'm impartial. But I will consider the most likely probability. Occam's razor. "Star Trek" Ive no idea what you are talking about. Are you now saying I'm biased in favour of the alien hypothesis or against? You do realise that some kind of technology similar to Star Trek is required to get here? They cant do it on Elon's big tin can. Quote What do they want with people like us who would be so primitive to them. Historically we regarded primitive people as curiosities or slaves or people to convert to some religion. Why would they come here to the edge of the galaxy? Where do they come from? How do they get here? That's not relevant to the discussion we are having re an alien craft being so flawed that it cant handle lightning but can do incredible things to get here. Or relevant to my belief that the Roswell incident was a Project Mogul balloon and not aliens. Quote Maybe they are angels travelling here from heaven or hell? Given man's beliefs in so many gods that's just as logical. No its not just as logical because its based on a purely invented concept from mankind's imagination rather than the scientific probability of an alien race existing and the scientific plausibility of them developing super advanced technology. We know life exists, thus, we know its possible for it to exist elsewhere, some would say inevitable. The question is whether they can overcome the difficulty of traveling the enormous distances to get here. I say improbable but not impossible. Quote Sightings of things real or imagined or supposed is not hard evidence. Imagination isn't hard evidence no. Sightings of something real is obviously something real, what it is, is open to debate until its proven to be a particular thing. And I don't think I recall anyone in this thread referring to hard evidence for anything, so I'm not sure why you said that. Quote The main difference between you and I is the wanting to believe. I have no desire to want to believe so many different kinds a descriptions of so many unexplained sightings unless there is physical evidence. You, on the other, hand, want to believe so badly so that anything unexplained in the sky are super intelligent beings. What! How can you say that, when its me that's arguing that the Roswell crash was NOT an alien spacecraft and was NOT an alien craft bought down by mere lightning. At the same time, its YOU that's arguing it could be. You are pro the alien hypothesis in this case and its me that's against. 🤣 And how can you say that when I have said numerous times that the ATFLIR footage does not impress me. All I have said is that there are some events that are hard to explain and worthy of investigation. Not once have I said I think these events are aliens. Its like you've not read my replies at all. Your are mispresenting my opinion on this. Quote The only thing you haven't brought up yet are the cattle mutilations in Wyoming that could only have been done by some super intelligent beings from the stars. That's the closest thing to physical evidence I have ever heard or read about. Its nonsense, like Roswell being aliens is likely to be nonsense. You wont find me being biased toward the alien hypothesis in this thread, precisely why I argued against the Bob Lazar nonsense. What you will find me doing is telling you why a particular explanation for a sighting is likely, or possibly, not the case because there's a good reason it isn't. I will; do that both for and against the alien hypotheses, because the point is to try to get to a semblance of the truth.
May 21, 20215 yr 1 hour ago, martin-w said: The HYPOTHETICAL argument here is that IF aliens are visiting us, would they crash from a lightning storm. We are comparing our level of technology with a race that can come here with some kind of super advanced technology. I mean they can't do it any other way can they? By definition they would be many orders of magnitude more advanced than us. That doesn't mean they can't be subject to the same atmospheric phenomena that we are. You seem to think they are invincible even though there is no evidence to prove their existence. Noel The tires are worn. The shocks are shot. The steering is wobbly. But the engine still runs fine.
May 21, 20215 yr 1 hour ago, martin-w said: At the same time, its YOU that's arguing it could be. You are pro the alien hypothesis in this case and its me that's against. I have always argued it cold be and that it cold have been brought down by a severe thunderstorm. You don't know that it couldn't or that it could. You surmise that if it's alien it would never be struck by lightning or downdrafts or wind shear or tennis ball size hail stones. I'm saying that if there were alien spacecraft roaming our skies it might or might not be. Noel The tires are worn. The shocks are shot. The steering is wobbly. But the engine still runs fine.
May 21, 20215 yr 4 hours ago, birdguy said: Why would they come here to the edge of the galaxy? Just being nitpicky but we are about two thirds of the way out from the centre of our galaxy so there could be aliens coming in from the real edge of the galaxy. Dugald Walker
May 21, 20215 yr 1 hour ago, martin-w said: At the same time, its YOU that's arguing it could be. You are pro the alien hypothesis in this case and its me that's against. Arguing that it COULD be is not the same as being pro-alien. It is also saying maybe not. Noel The tires are worn. The shocks are shot. The steering is wobbly. But the engine still runs fine.
May 21, 20215 yr 5 minutes ago, dmwalker said: Just being nitpicky but we are about two thirds of the way out from the centre of our galaxy so there could be aliens coming in from the real edge of the galaxy. Actually about half way. 25,800 light years according to the latest map. I was in error saying the edge of the galaxy. Noel The tires are worn. The shocks are shot. The steering is wobbly. But the engine still runs fine.
May 21, 20215 yr Ever since Ezekiel, and perhaps even before, it is documented that people have seen alien space craft and people. In the eons that these craft and people have been sighted there is not one bit of physical evidence that they actually exist. That doesn't mean they don't, but how long is it going to be before they make themselves and their aircraft known Area 51, Mayan carvings, and the Nazca runways not withstanding. My mind is mostly closed as to their existence, but a little corner of it is open enough to say maybe. Maybe the Roswell incident was true and the weather balloons were a coverup started by General Ramey at Carswell Air Force Base where he had Major Marcel pose with weather balloon debris. Noel The tires are worn. The shocks are shot. The steering is wobbly. But the engine still runs fine.
May 22, 20215 yr Author 14 hours ago, birdguy said: That doesn't mean they can't be subject to the same atmospheric phenomena that we are. You seem to think they are invincible even though there is no evidence to prove their existence. Noel They would obviously be subjected to the same weather phenomon. But such a race that could travel thousands of light years to get here would obviously have hyper advanced technology, or they couldn't get here in the first place. So to think our hypotheitcal aliens with their highly advanced scientific knowledge would have an issue with a bit of Earth weather is obviously illogical. If they can do the hard things easily, they obviously could do the easy things. Or they'd avoid a weather sytem all together. I can't explain it any simpler. Proving their existance is not relevant. This is HYPOTHETICAL. You are doing the same by claiming our hypothetical aliens COULD have an issue with weather. Nobody said anything about being invincible. You don't have to be invincible to avoid weather.
May 22, 20215 yr Author 14 hours ago, birdguy said: Arguing that it COULD be is not the same as being pro-alien. It is also saying maybe not. Noel It's more "pro alien" than me saying Roswell was not an alien spacecraft and there's barely any chance of super advanced tech having an issue with Earth weather. And yet, you claimed I was pro the alien hypothesis.
May 22, 20215 yr Author 15 hours ago, birdguy said: I have always argued it cold be and that it cold have been brought down by a severe thunderstorm. You don't know that it couldn't or that it could. You surmise that if it's alien it would never be struck by lightning or downdrafts or wind shear or tennis ball size hail stones. I'm saying that if there were alien spacecraft roaming our skies it might or might not be. Noel By definition, if a hypothetical alien race could travel at relativistic velocites to get to Earth in a reasonable time frame they MUST have technology thats way, way way in advance of ours. That means being able to generate warp bubbles that require exotic forms of negative energy, and being able to generate huge amounts of power, and being able to create super powerful force fields to deflect dust particles that would obliterate the space ship at light speed. Space is a harsh, deadly place, and it demands a highly advanced understanding of physics to achieve such a miraculous task. And despite the above you believe our hypothetical aliens would have an issue with well understood, "weather". And in addition, wouldn't bother to avoid it. Acording to you this incredible machine they arrive in that can withstand the unfathomabley harsh environment of space, and unfathomabley difficult challenge of traveling at light speed would, when encountering lighning, cause our aliens to throw thir arms in the air and proclaim "oh no, look at all that zig zag light and stuff in that cloud, don't know what that is, never seen that before, better just fly through it and see what happens when our hyper advanced spaceship inevitably gets destroyed, no way can it handle static electricity in a cloud. I mean, travelling at light speed is easy, but no way could our ship handle this Earth cloud static stuff, I mean its just weird. Better send a data burst home before we allow it to destroy us, the folks at home need to know about this weird electricity stuff." Put very simplistically... If your spaceship can handle traveling at relativistic velocites, it can handle forces many orders of magnitude greater than lightning, or a bit of hail or a downdraft. Edited May 22, 20215 yr by martin-w
May 22, 20215 yr 4 hours ago, martin-w said: You don't have to be invincible to avoid weather. Avoiding weather isn't the same thing s being impervious to it. Noel The tires are worn. The shocks are shot. The steering is wobbly. But the engine still runs fine.
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