Just now, wims80 said:

Why dont you spend time on things you enjoy instead of hate, my friend

Hello friend, could you please point out to me where I expressed hatred for MSFS? Do you realize I was praising MS and Asobo for what they did, for their high quality, high-fidelity scenery and world simulation? Do you know of another app or game where the whole world has been represented so accurately in an almost 1:1 scale? 

Once again, I don't hate MSFS 2020. I love it. And I love and enjoy it as a video-game and not as a 'flight' simulator. 

10 minutes ago, EvidencePlz said:

You thought MSFS devs and producer said they'd make MSFS with simmers in mind? Yes that is true they said that, but as of today, MSFS 2020 has got absolutely nothing to do with aviation and 'flight' simulation. The flight model for example is completely wrong and is worse than GTA 5 and that's just one issue. As long as you treat MSFS 2020 as a game, something like GTA 5, and have fun, it's fun. Don't treat it like a flight sim. Treat it like how I treat GTA 5. I'm a big fan of GTA 5 and one of the things I like to do is drive around the map at high speed. When I do that, I don't look for accurate car physics or live weather. I submit myself to how the Rockstar devs made the GTA physics and weather. Not everything in life has to be study-level, FAA-approved simulators like P3D and XP11. I'm glad that MSFS is a console-based video game where people can use Xbox and PS4 controllers to operate the vehicles. Just treat it like a console scenery generator video game and enjoy and love the world. It's a huge technical achievement by MS and Asobo, although they lied about the 'flight' sim part.

In that case MSFS lacks story. Maby we should add that to the wishlist instead.

13 hours ago, Chock said:

Not really. Whilst flying into a thunderstorm is potentially dangerous, it isn't guaranteed instant death. I know this from personal experience when I got into one in a glider, and it wasn't through choice, so it can certainly be the case that you can get caught out by the weather.

Vertical movement of the air mass is how things are in real life and it is of course a fundamental part of gliding too, since that is what a thermal is. It is possible to get pretty violent turbulence in a thunderstorm of course, but in all honesty when I was flying that glider in a thunderstorm, it wasn't actually very turbulent at all, it was just that there was a lot of vertical air mass movement forcing me down until I was fortunate enough to find some air which was going upwards. Thus my main concern was not the notion of the plane being ripped to pieces, but rather the rate of descent of the air mass I was flying in and the fact that I was in IMC without an artificial horizon.

Conceptually, trying to climb in a downdraft it is like being on a set of travellator steps which are going down with you trying to run up them; you may be running up, but the steps you are on are going down faster, so you still go down. The other concern I had on that occasion was the possibility of a lightning strike, which almost certainly would have destroyed the aeroplane at an altitude where I would have been lucky to have enough time to deploy my parachute.

One of the fundamental things which was an attraction to MSFS, was the promise that this vertical air movement would be in the simulator - this is what they said in one of their promotional preview videos - and so if it isn't, then I regard that as 'going back on the deal'. I really don't care if 'some people would not understand' why their aeroplane was going up or down as they flew along; that is what aeroplanes do, they fly through the air. Saying 'people wouldn't understand in a simulator so we left it out', makes about as much sense as saying we didn't put rain in the sim because some people wouldn't understand why their window was harder to see out of. After all, they could easily put a pop up on screen message in the sim which said 'you are in extreme weather and may experience strong updrafts or downdrafts which exceed the ability of your aeroplane to outclimb or out-descend them!' It's not hard to have a sim do that kind of thing, it does it for when you climb and need to lean off the mixture by reading a sim parameter, so it would be similarly easy to have an excessive vertical speed trigger a warning too.

You can select better weather in a sim if you don't like what is going on, so there is no excuse for not putting bad weather, and all its associated effects, in a simulator. And more importantly, it was sold to me on the basis that it would have this feature, so if it doesn't, that was false advertising.

 

 

Great post. With the assistance in the sim, I don’t see why they can’t add your suggestion as an option. If you want full simulation, then you don’t get the warning message, if you are learning you can select to get the message or a warning icon appear.

Just now, dahojds said:

In that case MSFS lacks story. Maby we should add that to the wishlist instead.

yes, true, and I hope now that MSFS 2020 is on Xbox, the core devs would concentrate on adding engaging stories, missions etc eventually. I mean Asobo is a video-game company and not a flight-sim company, and all they have done so far is making very good video games. They can't make flight sims, yes they obviously failed at that miserably, but they could add engaging stories and program them at least, if nothing else. You can already add Skypark or OnAir (both are payware) to add some sort of story, and I think the former has a better, game-like and fun story going for it. 

11 minutes ago, EvidencePlz said:

You thought MSFS devs and producer said they'd make MSFS with simmers in mind? Yes that is true they said that, but as of today, MSFS 2020 has got absolutely nothing to do with aviation and 'flight' simulation. The flight model for example is completely wrong and is worse than GTA 5 and that's just one issue. As long as you treat MSFS 2020 as a game, something like GTA 5, and have fun, it's fun. Don't treat it like a flight sim. Treat it like how I treat GTA 5. I'm a big fan of GTA 5 and one of the things I like to do is drive around the map at high speed. When I do that, I don't look for accurate car physics or live weather. I submit myself to how the Rockstar devs made the GTA physics and weather. Not everything in life has to be study-level, FAA-approved simulators like P3D and XP11. I'm glad that MSFS is a console-based video game where people can use Xbox and PS4 controllers to operate the vehicles. Just treat it like a console scenery generator video game and enjoy and love the world. It's a huge technical achievement by MS and Asobo, although they lied about the 'flight' sim part.

Neither P3D or Xplane are certified flight simulators in the version the public "plays" with.

Both require a professional license and a certified set of flight controls before they even come close.

The Xplane version needs a pro license costing in excess of $1000 and certified hardware from Flight Controls and GLEIM costing anywhere between $10,000 and $100,000 depending on version.

After that it then has to fully certified as a combined unit by the FAA before it can be used.

Now what changes in the unlocked Xplane certifiable pro version..  oddly enough it's the flight model which has significant upgrades and changes and completely custom aircraft files which do not resemble the ones used for normal "play" flying.

So just stating that Xplane (and P3D) are certifiable in no way reflects the reality of what the status of the base sim for the public is.

 

Graham

This is the $65,000 full motion AATD in which I occasionally instruct. You know what software it runs? P3D…v3 I think. You know what it doesn’t do? …fly like a real airplane. It’s is a great procedural trainer, though. 

I think it is a common misconception that these certified sims are somehow magically superior in terms of flight dynamics than home PC versions. It is generally not true even on the higher end hardware.

I imagine real world pilots also "don't understand why they are climbing at 10,000fpm while nose down."

Maybe if they encountered it more as kids on their home sim it might save a life or two a decade down the line.

15 minutes ago, snglecoil said:

This is the $65,000 full motion AATD in which I occasionally instruct. You know what software it runs? P3D…v3 I think. You know what it doesn’t do? …fly like a real airplane. It’s is a great procedural trainer, though. 

I think it is a common misconception that these certified sims are somehow magically superior in terms of flight dynamics than home PC versions. It is generally not true even on the higher end hardware.

But i don’t think devs of p3d and x-plane limit their flightsimulator as an assistance for people who doesen’t know what wind does with a plane and need an indicator that tells everybody that they are lifting because the wind are pushing the plane upwards. They are old sim platforms. Msfs is new and they limit the simulation. Can’t understand why they do that.

Edited August 15, 20214 yr by dahojds

14 minutes ago, snglecoil said:

This is the $65,000 full motion AATD in which I occasionally instruct. You know what software it runs? P3D…v3 I think. You know what it doesn’t do? …fly like a real airplane. It’s is a great procedural trainer, though. 

I think it is a common misconception that these certified sims are somehow magically superior in terms of flight dynamics than home PC versions. It is generally not true even on the higher end hardware.

Yeah  Redbird use the $2500 professional version of P3D.  Again, completely different from the "play version" that everyone else uses.

Graham

3 minutes ago, Moria15 said:

Yeah  Redbird use the $2500 professional version of P3D.  Again, completely different from the "play version" that everyone else uses.

Graham

And I’m saying from experience that the $2500 professional version still “flies” like 💩

Edited August 15, 20214 yr by snglecoil

13 minutes ago, dahojds said:

But i don’t think devs of p3d and x-plane limit their flightsimulator as an assistance for people who doesen’t know what wind does with a plane and need an indicator that tells everybody that they are lifting because the wind are pushing the plane upwards. They are old sim platforms. Msfs is new and they limit the simulation. Can’t understand why they do that.

Maybe it’s a language barrier…but I have no idea what you are trying to say. Historically vertical air movement in any home based sim has been limited or nonexistent. But now all of the sudden MSFS is not a “real” sim because it doesn’t do 10,000 fpm up/downdrafts? 

14 minutes ago, snglecoil said:

And I’m saying from experience that the $2500 professional version still “flies” like 💩

dont disagree, but remember, the redbird is only certified by FAA for procedure simulation (as you stated), not actual flying simulation, so even a $65000 simulator isn't a real flying simulator 🙂 in that regard.

The max it can give you under FAA rules is a total of 2.5 hours of your 40 hours required and many things are excluded from that such as the final 3 hours leading to the test cannot be done in the sim and none of that 2.5 hours is valid unless the same thing has also been done in a real plane, etc etc

Trying to compare the professional version of some simulator software against the versions that people use on their home computers, which is being touted by some in this thread (not you) is comparing apples to oranges and has no validity or merit.

Graham

Edited August 15, 20214 yr by Moria15

20 minutes ago, snglecoil said:

Maybe it’s a language barrier…but I have no idea what you are trying to say. Historically vertical air movement in any home based sim has been limited or nonexistent. But now all of the sudden MSFS is not a “real” sim because it doesn’t do 10,000 fpm up/downdrafts? 

I’m not saying it’s not a ”real” sim. The devs says they developing this ”real” sim for simmers in mind. Now they got the simulation of up/downdrafts but they have limmited it to about 1000 fpm. I can’t understand why they do that if they make this sim for simmers in mind.

56 minutes ago, snglecoil said:

Historically vertical air movement in any home based sim has been limited or nonexistent. But now all of the sudden MSFS is not a “real” sim because it doesn’t do 10,000 fpm up/downdrafts? 

Not really true, there are several sims for PC which feature vertical air mass movement. But vertical air movement has not been well represented in more mainstream flight sims such as FS and XPlane, however, it is a feature of every glider simulator, from the more expensive ones such as Soaring Sim and Condor, to the recent cheap and cheerful one from Aerosoft, since it is a necessary feature for a glider sim to operate. So it's not all of a sudden that MSFS is not realistic, it's that any simulator which doesn't have that in it, isn't as realistic as it could be, and this is a thing which has always annoyed me about them because I want a flight simulator to simulate flight over and above everything else, which is why I was looking forward to MSFS being a more mainstream flight sim which was promising to feature this atmospheric behaviour.

It's not an unusual phenomenon; gliders don't fly in some magical other world where this only happens for them, literally everything which flies is affected by it. So if a flight sim is going to have a stab at being realistic, it should feature this, especially when it was claimed that it would do on one of its promotional feature videos. I could take you to loads of places where I can pretty much guarantee you could stay up in a glider all day long with the lift off the nearby ridges, and similarly, if I took you to the other side of the hill, the air would be going down like the Titanic.

Edited August 15, 20214 yr by Chock

I helped buy and set up a Redbird BATD at my local airport as part of STEM program that has now turned into a flight academy.

I was shocked at how bad the graphics were and how primitive the PD3 program was compared to my home X-plane system, now FS2020.

Only one plane is in the BATD, a 172. No constant speed prop even.

As stated you can only use 2.5 hrs in the sim towards the Private license. Our instructors use it to train procedure and muscle memory of  the controls and radios.

It definitely can't train a student stick and rudder skills to any serious level. But you can learn how to fly the pattern and some instrument procedures.

I actually feel my home system is a better trainer. And our club members agree. They like flying my setup more.

Our version of the BATD cost about $16,000.00 installed and has no motion, but it does have 3 monitors. It is a good introduction to flying, but not much more really.

The way I see it simmers and gamers are really the same, being a pilot is something different all together. That does not mean pilots can't be simmers/gamers. But simmers/gamers who do not fly real planes are not pilots IMHO.