1 hour ago, n4gix said:

About 30 years ago I had back surgery for ruptured disks in L4 and L5. When I received the bill I was blown away for the ridiculous "incidental" charges:

• Urine Bottle - $60
• Box of Tissues - $30
• Tylenol 30 x $5/each
• et cetera

A total of $500 of "incidentals" was on the bill. Fortunately for me this was covered by my employer's insurance plan.

 

L4 and L5 are the vertebrae, the discs are between. Disc L4/L5 is a common one. Takes all the torque. That's mine too.

US Medical Debt and Bankruptcies

6. The total medical debt in the United States in 2020 totaled $45 billion.

A study by Credit Karma reveals that the total medical debt in the US was $45 billion. This information was based on the credit reports of over 20 million Americans. The same medical debt statistics established that medical debt rose 3% from the moment the COVID pandemic started until August 2020 when the research was conducted.

(USA Today)

7. Every year about 530,000 families file for bankruptcy due to healthcare bills.

For hundreds of thousands of American households, it is easier to file for bankruptcy than to deal with medical costs. Medical-related bankruptcies, according to a Nasdaq article, are killing the middle class in the USA. The author mentions other worrisome facts about medical debt like a Nobel laureate who paid healthcare bills by selling his medal. It also stated that over 250,000 people seek help to pay medical bills through the GoFundMe crowdfunding service.

(Nasdaq)

8. Medical indebtedness is the number one cause of bankruptcies in the US.

About 62% of people highlight healthcare bills as the leading cause of bankruptcies in America. It’s more shocking to note that over three-fourths (78%) of those people had some type of insurance, medical bankruptcy statistics show. This number indicates that medical bankruptcies with insurance are a real thing in the USA.

Noel

Free stuff is never valued as much as what you have to pay for, definitely devalued. I think reducing but not eliminating fees is the best system. For one thing the individual university now has to compete in the market place. It has to 'sell' itself to prospective students. And those universities that charge less will attract more students, all else being equal.

If it's all free, then the University will spend a bundle on everything they buy or rent which they could have gotten cheaper. Because they aren't paying for it, the general population is (i.e. government funds).

Almost nothing should be free. If everything in life was always free then species would not even have evolved, and intelligent beings would not now exist. To progress, a specie's individuals have to compete by working, thinking, persisting towards goals. An easy life society ruins everything, it all falls apart.

Look at Venezuela which is the 1950's had the 5th best GNP per capita on Earth. Now they stream out over the borders by the millions looking to get enough to eat.

This is why China, while keeping a form of Communism, re-introduced a stock market, private companies yielding private wealth in the late 1960s. It worked wonders and prevented a collapse. Viet Nam is doing some of the same sort of thing.

1 hour ago, n4gix said:

• Urine Bottle - $60
• Box of Tissues - $30
• Tylenol 30 x $5/each
• et cetera

That's outrageous.  What's more outrageous is that they get way with it.  

As I was leaving the ward after my gall bladder removal a nurse chased me down and handed me a tray.  She told me to was mine to keep.

In the tray was another smaller tray, 6 alcohol prep pads, a box of tissues I never used, a hair net, and a sealed, Ready Bath bathing cloth.  I told her I had no use for these things but she said I had to take them with me.  So I asked her if I could have something I could use; how about those socks they give you to wear when you're in the hospital?  She ran back and gave me a half dozen pair.  I still use them walking around the house.  I have no idea if they put those on the bill or not.

Noel

 

38 minutes ago, Fielder said:

Free stuff is never valued as much as what you have to pay for

Unless you are destitute and have no money to pay for something you value even if it's something as cheap as half  a sandwich.

People run the gamut from very wealthy to homeless.  There is a thing called oblige noblesse.  It means that nobility extends beyond mere entitlement and requires people who hold such status to fulfill social responsibilities like helping those in need.

We don't have many homeless people in Roswell but from time to time the exit road at Walmart will have someone holding a sign begging for money.  I always stop and give them a dollar.  To those who say it might be someone who doesn't need it I say maybe he does need it.

One morning my wife and I were out walking and an older woman with two children asked for money to buy the kids breakfast.  I didn't give her any money but there was a McDonalds down the block and I took them there and bought them breakfast.

 My budget allows me to give 100 dollars a month to charity which I divide between two children's hospitals, Make a Wish foundation, and an animal shelter.

My income isn't hard earned anymore so it's not really a sacrifice for me to give some of it away.

But if oblige noblesse isn't universally practiced then the money that would have been donated commensurate with wealth should be taken in the form of tax to be used to help the needy.  And it is to a certain extent.  But not nearly enough.  So I am willing to have what I give away every month to be taken in taxes to help make society better by providing a decent standard of living for those who need it for as long as they need it.  The key word here is NEED, not to be interpreted as WANT.

Noel

Edited November 9, 20214 yr by birdguy

The money handed out in your examples did come free to the receivers. They were out there probably for hours making their presence known, i.e. working for it. Almost nothing should be entirely free. Reducing and helping with college fees, especially for the poor is a good idea. But making it entirely free is a very terrible idea which would harm all of society.

I think socialism sucks. In Scandinavia they do not have socialism and their economies work very well. Scandinavia has far less business taxes than America for instance.

Norway Healthcare:

You have to pay for reimbursable medicines and deductibles at doctors until you have paid 2460 NOK. A normal visit to a doctor or specialist cost 250 NOK. If you have to go to Hospital, the major costs are paid for.

Norway Education:

First 13 years of school is free. Universities: You pay a tuition fee every term. How much I think varies but at the University of Oslo it is 740 NOK. You have to pay for your curriculum books, lab fees, other fees.

6 hours ago, martin-w said:

Do you feed your stray cats? If so I will award you a cat point. 

Just over a year ago (10/28/2020 to be exact) a neighbor knocked on our door. He asked my wife to go out with him to his golf cart. And there he showed her what he had found. A tiny little kitten. Knowing that my wife was a "cat lady" he brought her here. The kitten was found abandoned just a short distance from our house. And the kitten was in really poor shape. We immediately jumped into the car and took her to our local vet. And a good thing we did. The vet guessed the kittens age at no more than two weeks. And told us that she wouldn't have survived another day on her own. She only weighed 9 oz then and fitted nicely in my shirt pocket.

Our youngest son is 52 years old and the days of bottle-feeding at 2 a.m. are long past. Right? Wrong! So here we are, two old farts getting up in the middle of the night to bottle-feed a cat. Who would have ever thunk it.

Now she weighs just over 11 pounds and barely fits in the cat box. The older cat is still trying to adjust to "the brat" but it's showing signs of someday being OK.

We named the kitten Lucky.

 

 

1 hour ago, martin-w said:

L4 and L5 are the vertebrae, the discs are between. Disc L4/L5 is a common one. Takes all the torque. That's mine too.

Me too. I had polio when I was 7 years old. My spine is shaped like a corkscrew. And even with all that, the only problem I've ever  had is with L3-5.

24 minutes ago, Fielder said:

In Scandinavia they do not have socialism

They all, including the US, have capitalist socialism.  A combination of the two.  Pure capitalism and pure socialism are bad ideas.  A blend of the two allows for social services and business to coexist.  

What is the Scandinavians don't have are big defense budgets and self imposed commitments to police the world or look for wars that last 20+ years.

Noel

 

Basically Uncle Sam and John Bull and France and Germany is paying for the Scandinavian's defense. Absent that they would not exist any more.

Thanks to the wonders of socialism Venezuela citizens sneak into the zoos at night to steal animals for food.

In America thanks to capitalism, at the turn of the 20th century one person owned almost all the steel and another all the oil in America, etc. (Carnegie and Rockefeller). Theodore Roosevelt broke up the trusts. I think he was the best President since George Washington. He was also strong on defense, another sign of his intelligence and common sense.

32 minutes ago, Fielder said:

Almost nothing should be entirely free.

You say Almost.

St. Jude's Children's Research Hospital provides free cancer treatments for children.  In addition it provides room and board at no cost for the parents of those children.  The hospital does not bill the families.  Do you think the parents don't value the treatment and services provided for their children just as much as they would if they had to borrow or scrimp and save to pay for those services?

Shriner's Children's Hospital does the same.

In days past when flat tires were more common we always stopped to help a woman with a flat.  No charge.  Do you think that woman was less grateful than if we had charged her for the service?

Someone posted a while ago that a free education that put skilled and knowledgeable people back into society as productive people is payback enough.  I agree.  

Noel  

11 minutes ago, Fielder said:

Basically Uncle Sam and John Bull and France and Germany is paying for the Scandinavian's defense.

They do have their own defense budgets.  In fact the Swedish Saab  is going to become the Air Force's replacement for the T-38.

https://www.airforcemag.com/air-force-wants-up-to-400-advanced-fighter-trainers-like-t-7s/

Noel

4 hours ago, n4gix said:

When I received the bill I was blown away for the ridiculous "incidental" charges

As a Canadian, I always find it strange that patients in the USA receive itemized bills for their medical care, especially after a stay in hospital.

Because of our universal healthcare, Canadians don’t get bills from hospitals or doctors (similar to the situation in other countries with universal healthcare) … and don’t even really know how much procedures cost. What we do know the cost of is parking at the hospital—it can be quite expensive on a hourly/daily basis, especially when visiting family members who have extended stays.

One more thing: I know that it’s not free. I’m happy to pay higher taxes if it means that no one should worry about going bankrupt to pay for necessary medical procedures.

Edited November 9, 20214 yr by JRMurray

5 hours ago, birdguy said:

I think emergency care must be given regardless of a person's ability to pay.

Agreed.  However, that is a part of the reason our healthcare is so expensive.  Not the main reason, but part of it.  My mother worked in medical billing for 35 years.  She told me stories of how often people show up at the ER and then don't pay.  The hospital has to "write off" the charge, but what they actually do is pass the costs on to everyone else.  It's like raising taxes on businesses and corporations - they just pass the costs on to the consumer.

Medicare and Medicaid pay much less than what the actual hospital or doctor charge is.  Medicaid only pays 20% in some cases, and the healthcare provider is prohibited from charging the patient the difference.

What a lot of people don't know is that the U.S. already has universal health coverage for nearly half the population - Medicaid for the poor and Medicare for the elderly.  Medicaid pays 100% with no deductibles or copays.  Medicare covers 80% and costs about $150 a month, and supplemental coverage for the other 20% costs $100-200.  Not too bad, actually.  Then there's the Affordable Care Act which is a healthcare insurance subsidy for individuals making <$50K a year who don't get health insurance through their employer.  The costs for a good plan vary based on income and location, but typically don't exceed $400 a month for a middle class income.

The problem the U.S. continues to have is that the cost of healthcare is so high, therefore the private insurance is also expensive, unless you qualify for one of the programs mentioned above.

Dave

 

Cuba and Venezuela try to make everything free and have the government run the economy. The results speak for themselves. What miserable standard of living their citizens have.

China does not do that sort of foolishness, despite being Communist. And people there live better than in Cuba or Venezuela. Socialism sucks.