PMDG 737 update

[jarmstro 2,403]

2 minutes ago, flyinpilot212121 said:

Still flyable without a radar.

Would a real life 737 pilot be prepared to take a plane full of passengers up if the weather radar and TCAS wasn't working?

[bobcat999 8,484]

1 minute ago, jarmstro said:

Would a real life 737 pilot be prepared to take a plane full of passengers up if the weather radar and TCAS wasn't working?

Yes...  A mate of mine used to take a pine cone and a set of binoculars. 

[flyinpilot212121 724]

12 minutes ago, jarmstro said:

Would a real life 737 pilot be prepared to take a plane full of passengers up if the weather radar and TCAS wasn't working?

Whether they would or not, the plane in itself is still flyable.

[JRBarrett 3,078]

13 minutes ago, jarmstro said:

read that it wont have weather radar. If this is correct then how can it be worth more that £50 because it is actually unrealistic and unflyable?

A real airliner can be legally flown if the onboard weather radar is inoperative and marked out of service under the MEL. FAR 121.357 only requires weather radar to be functional when thunderstorms may “reasonably be expected” along the route of flight, based on forecasts. It depends on the season and location.

[Sethos 4,344]

19 minutes ago, jarmstro said:

Would a real life 737 pilot be prepared to take a plane full of passengers up if the weather radar and TCAS wasn't working?

Luckily this isn't real life

[jarmstro 2,403]

35 minutes ago, Sethos said:

Luckily this isn't real life

Agreed. But they can't claim it's an authentic simulation if it isn't. And imo the price should reflect the fact that it is not study level. Fifty quid would be about right imo.

Edited November 16, 2021 by jarmstro

[Alaska738 8,411]

I was wondering if the expansion will be included in the base package or separate?

[JRBarrett 3,078]

13 minutes ago, jarmstro said:

Agreed. But they can't claim it's an authentic simulation if it isn't. And imo the price should reflect the fact that it is not study level. Fifty quid would be about right imo.

Lack of weather radar is in no way due to a fault or shortcoming on PMDG’s part. All of their P3D airliners have radar (optimally driven by ActiveSky - but it will work with other weather engines too). Since the MSFS version of the 737 is a derivative of the existing P3D version, I imagine the underlying code to display radar is present. But, a simulated radar requires input data to work, and that is solely dependent on Asobo exposing cloud/precip data via an API. Until they do, no add-on based on C++/WASM will have a working weather radar, no matter how complex or accurate the overall add-on might otherwise be. 

The moment such an API is provided, I’m sure that weather radar will be made available immediately.

I doubt very much that the PMDG 737 is going to retail for much higher than $100 US, (and it may well be less), but I don’t think it is reasonable to expect a developer to knock 50 percent off of their retail price just because one subsystem in an otherwise highly complex and realistic aircraft cannot (yet) be emulated. Especially when that is due to a current shortcoming in the base sim itself (or SDK), not due to any lack of effort or knowledge by the developer.

[jarmstro 2,403]

13 minutes ago, JRBarrett said:

Lack of weather radar is in no way due to a fault or shortcoming on PMDG’s part. All of their P3D airliners have radar (optimally driven by ActiveSky - but it will work with other weather engines too). Since the MSFS version of the 737 is a derivative of the existing P3D version, I imagine the underlying code to display radar is present. But, a simulated radar requires input data to work, and that is solely dependent on Asobo exposing cloud/precip data via an API. Until they do, no add-on based on C++/WASM will have a working weather radar, no matter how complex or accurate the overall add-on might otherwise be. 

The moment such an API is provided, I’m sure that weather radar will be made available immediately.

I doubt very much that the PMDG 737 is going to retail for much higher than $100 US, (and it may well be less), but I don’t think it is reasonable to expect a developer to knock 50 percent off of their retail price just because one subsystem in an otherwise highly complex and realistic aircraft cannot (yet) be emulated. Especially when that is due to a current shortcoming in the base sim itself (or SDK), not due to any lack of effort or knowledge by the developer.

Nevertheless, whatever the issue is, weather radar and TCAS, as far as we know, will not be present and the price should reflect the fact that this will not be a study level plane. It will be another XBox game approximation.

Edited November 16, 2021 by jarmstro

[threexgreen 3,139]

29 minutes ago, jarmstro said:

Nevertheless, whatever the issue is, weather radar and TCAS, as far as we know, will not be present and the price should reflect the fact that this will not be a study level plane. It will be another XBox game approximation.

How, logically, would the temporary lack of a WX radar equal a downgrade of systems simulation from 'study level' to 'Xbox game'? The WX radar is perhaps about 0.1% of what makes an entire airplane and accounts for a very small share of the overall amount of systems simulated in a complex aircraft addon as well. You're basically disregarding everything else that is simulated by assigning such an importance to one of hundreds - if not more - of subsystems that are simulated that it would make that much of a difference. As an example, other PMDG aircraft in FSX didn't have a WX radar either in the beginning - for the same reasons as here -, so what you're saying is these went from 'Xbox game' to 'study level' just because of the addition of one system. No developer could be reasonably expected to knock 30-40+ bucks off the price for that alone. Otherwise you'd be paying unearthly sums of money for an addon if one system was worth that much. Besides, unless I'm out of the loop, nobody said anything about TCAS not being included.

That said, I don't know why this has to be discrediting flight simming on an Xbox yet again.

[Stearmandriver 2,296]

2 hours ago, jarmstro said:

Would a real life 737 pilot be prepared to take a plane full of passengers up if the weather radar and TCAS wasn't working?

I've flown a 737NG with the radar MELd at least once that I remember, and I'm sure more than that.  It didn't take a lot of "preparing", as thunderstorms are not commonly (though sometimes) an issue from Seattle to Fairbanks.  😉

Much is made of wx radar in the sim world and to be honest, I've never seen a sim implementation in FSX, P3d or Xplane that's correct.  Yes they all serve the function of allowing you to "stay out of the red", but weather doesn't appear or behave correctly, so if you're accustomed to real radar, the displays just look weird. 

When it's available in MSFS it should be much better since weather itself behaves more correctly in this sim.  For instance, the datalink wx displays currently available are pretty good. 

Until then, I personally won't miss it.  I eventually didn't bother to turn on the implementations in other sims as the goofy wx appearance detracted more than it contributed to realism. 

Oh, TCAS can be MEL'd as well.  In real life I'd miss that more, but on Vatsim?  Meh, the consequences are a little lower...

[JRBarrett 3,078]

25 minutes ago, jarmstro said:

Nevertheless, whatever the issue is, weather radar and TCAS, as far as we know, will not be present and the price should reflect the fact that this will not be a study level plane. It will be another XBox game approximation.

TCAS? TCAS works fine in WASM add-ons - I see no reason why it would not be present in the PMDG 737.

There is some question about terrain display. WASM add-ons cannot currently read terrain directly from the sim as JS/HTML default aircraft can, (due a similar lack of an existing API) but in P3D, the PMDG aircraft have their own custom terrain database. If that existing system is ported to the MSFS version, I see no reason why terrain display would not be implemented at release. AFAIK, weather radar is the only feature not yet possible in a WASM add-on due to SDK limitations.

The lack of working weather radar is a temporary situation - waiting on Asobo to provide access to the data to drive it. Who knows? If the release of the 737 is delayed until next year, the necessary API might be provided by then, in which case it will be a non-issue.

But… just because one particular subsystem in an otherwise highly complex and realistic add-on cannot (yet) be emulated due to a sim limitation, that does not transform the add-on from “study level” to an “X-Box approximation”.

Two years ago, I purchased a new Jeep Wrangler for close to $30,000 off the dealer lot. It had everything I wanted, except the top-line radio with GPS navigation and Sirius satellite radio. If I had told the dealer I would only consider buying the vehicle if they would knock the price down to $15,000 because it only had the base low-end radio, I’m sure he would told me to go pound sand.

You asked in another post if a real 737 pilot would be willing to fly an airliner full of passengers without a working weather radar, the answer is “yes”. If the airline’s FAA-approved MEL permits an aircraft to fly with a particular system inoperative, the pilot really has no choice in the matter. It happens all the time in r/w airline operations. In that particular case, dispatch would not put the aircraft on routes where thunderstorms were known to exist or forecast.

[Mike S KPDX 597]

4 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

I've flown a 737NG with the radar MELd at least once that I remember, and I'm sure more than that.  It didn't take a lot of "preparing", as thunderstorms are not commonly (though sometimes) an issue from Seattle to Fairbanks.  😉

Much is made of wx radar in the sim world and to be honest, I've never seen a sim implementation in FSX, P3d or Xplane that's correct.  Yes they all serve the function of allowing you to "stay out of the red", but weather doesn't appear or behave correctly, so if you're accustomed to real radar, the displays just look weird. 

When it's available in MSFS it should be much better since weather itself behaves more correctly in this sim.  For instance, the datalink wx displays currently available are pretty good. 

Until then, I personally won't miss it.  I eventually didn't bother to turn on the implementations in other sims as the goofy wx appearance detracted more than it contributed to realism. 

Oh, TCAS can be MEL'd as well.  In real life I'd miss that more, but on Vatsim?  Meh, the consequences are a little lower...

Agreed, especially this statement "I've never seen a sim implementation in FSX, P3d or Xplane that's correct..."

Why PMDG does not simply use the ingame wx radar is a bit beyond me.  Is it fully correct? - no, will there ever be one that is? - no.  But it is here now and usable.  Same goes for the terrain display.

[Maxis 1,865]

2 hours ago, jarmstro said:

Agreed. But they can't claim it's an authentic simulation if it isn't. And imo the price should reflect the fact that it is not study level. Fifty quid would be about right imo.

So when they do manage to fix it are you prepared to purchase the fix separately? Since real authentic airlines have to pay to fix/add stuff? I would love to have the this stuff at a reasonable cost and above all not being price gouged but if you're going to play hardball Michael O Leary/ Akbar Al Baker because of the weather radar not being 100% i wouldn't expect the developer to be very charitable when the missing feature gets fixed and added.

I would rather pay up front for service and support of a product than a separated and piecemeal approach.. So i don't/wont  haggle over the fact that 1 or 2 aspects beyond their immediate control isn't included up front if it is promised to be included later. 

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by Maxis

[jarmstro 2,403]

33 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

I've flown a 737NG with the radar MELd at least once that I remember, and I'm sure more than that.  It didn't take a lot of "preparing", as thunderstorms are not commonly (though sometimes) an issue from Seattle to Fairbanks.  😉

Much is made of wx radar in the sim world and to be honest, I've never seen a sim implementation in FSX, P3d or Xplane that's correct.  Yes they all serve the function of allowing you to "stay out of the red", but weather doesn't appear or behave correctly, so if you're accustomed to real radar, the displays just look weird. 

When it's available in MSFS it should be much better since weather itself behaves more correctly in this sim.  For instance, the datalink wx displays currently available are pretty good. 

Until then, I personally won't miss it.  I eventually didn't bother to turn on the implementations in other sims as the goofy wx appearance detracted more than it contributed to realism. 

Oh, TCAS can be MEL'd as well.  In real life I'd miss that more, but on Vatsim?  Meh, the consequences are a little lower...

Whatever. But I cannot see how this plane can be called study level when important systems present in the real thing are INOP? And the price should reflect this fact. It's just not a study level. Fact.