This conversation fork needs its own thread.

Its been over three years now since I discovered "I can never go back to 2D", and back then that wasn't really a positive thing, because the VR experience was not flyable.

That's a difficult message to get across - if VR wasn't flyable, and 2D is "fine", how can it be logical that you can never go back to 2D from VR....

But since then I have seen a few other people share the same sentiment, so "it's not just me", so before getting to why VR is now flyable it probably needs explaining why you would want to.

People call it immersion, go into the detail of the differences; non of that matters. Once you have been bitten by the VR experience you can never go back to 2D, because now 2D feels flat, lifeless and completely fake, doesn't matter if you have "photo real" graphics, 100% realistic flight model, study level freeware or sleek in game market place, 2D feels like a prison, like watching the world go by in a room where the only window is a flat screen TV.

No screenshot, review video or write up is going to explain why this is, to understand why you need to see for yourself why VR makes people go:

Or makes young children sit in a VR helicopter screaming "OMG this amazing" for 5 solid minutes afraid to even touch the controls.

After that experience, anything similar on 2D screens is all just garbage, no matter how much more "beautiful" or "realistic" it looks - in 2D, its still just 2D and absolutely nothing to get excited about.

______

3 years ago, that was horrible, because its one thing to sit in a VR helicopter screaming inside "OMG this amazing", something else entirely to try and fly, only to find the stutters make you want to puke, the flight model really isn't realistic, you can't read any of the instruments you need to, none of the more interesting planes (like, say, the 744) are remotely close to the performance needed to even consider even trying them in VR, and any higher end headset is unjustifiably expensive for marginal improvements.

______

As we enter the last few weeks of 2021 I can now confidently say those days are behind us.

Firstly, and most importantly, the software is fixed, both XP Vulkan and the continual improvements to VR drivers now deliver a flawless render of the world (even on Linux, although stick with windows for now if you dont like getting your hands dirty, Linux VR is still very much a "developer only" experience, Apple hasn't release theirs yet, and they will have some catching up to do), Xplanes flight model has gone from pretty good to practically perfect in every way, and yup, even the 744 is now delivering on "OMG I'm in the cockpit of a 744 flying it" experience for people who have made that leap.

Next; the hardware caught up. From all the promise leading up to release AMDs Zen 3 knocked it out of the ballpark, and Nvidia now has GPUs capable of graphics everyone rightly believed were impossible 3 years ago - DO NOT BELIEVE the hype surrounding Intel 12th gen, they are no competition to Zen 3, and wont hold a candle to Zen 4, if you haven't bought new hardware yet wait for Zen 4 to hit the shelves.

Headsets are still unjustifiably expensive, PSVR2 should change that, until then the Reverb G2 looks like the "best buy" to not be left with a substandard experience (i.e. the cheapest headset with a high enough resolution to be able to read the instruments), but if you have the money you can now actually buy headsets (Reverb G2, Valve Index) with a high enough resolution to be able to read the instruments, and if you dont there are now plenty of "helper apps" to work around those issues.

All in, VR over the last 3 years has gone from struggle to near daily pleasure, There are even certified VR simulators now.

I'm most nervous about trying XP12 in case it ruins XP11 the way VR ruined 2D, but hopefully the differences are not quite so acute.

 

Is Valve's Index still the best option on Linux?

The specs on the PSVR2 look pretty insane! I wonder if it will be compatible with PC gaming? Probably not.

Display: Fresnel OLED screens
Resolution: 4K HDR, 2000 x 2400 per eye
FOV: 110 degrees
FSR: Flexible scaling resolution concentrates rendering resources on player’s area of focus
Eye tracking: Yes
Haptics in headset: Yes
Controllers: Adaptive triggers, capacitive touch sensors

56 minutes ago, Bjoern said:

Is Valve's Index still the best option on Linux?

Possibly, Some G2 support is in Monado now though

https://monado.freedesktop.org/#supported-hardware

55 minutes ago, strider1 said:

I wonder if it will be compatible with PC gaming?

Not "by Sony", but I would be very surprised (and disappointed in Sony) if Monado support doesn't come soon after its released, they already have PSVR and PS Move support pretty much wrapped up, eye tracking will likely take a lot of work.

I wouldn't really recommend PSVR at this point though, they are an OK headset (super compfy, no screen door) but resolution lets it down badly and PSVR2 is "soon™",

there is (no affiliation and not tried it)

https://store.steampowered.com/app/992490/iVRy_Driver_for_SteamVR/

Which is a windows port of Monado/openHMD

OTOH, you can pick a PSVR second hand for like €200 now (which is only like €50 less than they were new!!)

Edited December 7, 20214 yr by mSparks

PSVR is 1920x1080, what about the Oculus Quest 2 with the PC cable?

That is 1832x1920 and was recently on sale for $200.  Seems attractive at that price range, especially since it's completely self-contained and has no wires if you want to run the large library of Android-based VR apps.

1 hour ago, Gulfstream said:

the Oculus Quest 2

you need an $80 cable (wireless is not a good experience cant speak for the expensive dedicated solutions, but mobile solutions are nasty). and its not on sale here, still coming in at over €400 for the headset.

but its 1832x1920 per eye vs 960x1080 per eye for the psvr. so yes, $200 is a great deal.

That is very much what I meant by hoping the PSVR2 fixes that - it should set a new pricing standard that isnt unjustifiably expensive to be able to read the instruments.

On 12/8/2021 at 4:45 AM, strider1 said:

The specs on the PSVR2 look pretty insane! I wonder if it will be compatible with PC gaming? Probably not.

Display: Fresnel OLED screens
Resolution: 4K HDR, 2000 x 2400 per eye
FOV: 110 degrees
FSR: Flexible scaling resolution concentrates rendering resources on player’s area of focus
Eye tracking: Yes
Haptics in headset: Yes
Controllers: Adaptive triggers, capacitive touch sensors

Not 'insane' with FOV only 110.  That is only average these days.  Insane specs would be FOV 150+ degrees. Wide FOV makes a big difference.  If you looks at the Reverb G2 that has great displays and FOV 114 degrees. If they bump it up to 130-140+ next time I may jump in. 

17 minutes ago, Greazer said:

Not 'insane' with FOV only 110

anything over 100 for FOV is fine.

resolution per eye and refresh rate currently separate expensive headsets from the cheap ones.

Smaller fov can actually help, because it reduces aliasing and increases dpi.

my 2 cents: the FOV figure is often misleading.

There can be a lot of difference between the "FOV" (as announced) and the effective horizontal and vertical FOV. In effect, the former is usually the diagonal one, otherwise it is the largest (makes sense to promote your HMD with a larger figure after all).

And this can make dramatic differences in flight simulation (maybe less with HLA but this is debatable 🙂 ). For example, the Index as a larger vertical FOV than the G2, and in practice, I find that I can see both the runway and the instruments in the panel during approach, in just moving the eyes (and the Index as near edge-to-edge clarity vertically for me - not so horizontally though), whereas with the G2, I usually can't see both fully at once and I have to move the head ever so slightly more often.

There is a technical reference for FOV (and much more) you might want to consult here:

https://risa2000.github.io/hmdgdb/

 

15 hours ago, mSparks said:

anything over 100 for FOV is fine.

I have tried wide FOV (Pimax).  Once you have tried it you never want to go back.  It makes a huge difference.  Right now you don't know.

1 hour ago, Greazer said:

I have tried wide FOV (Pimax).  Once you have tried it you never want to go back.  It makes a huge difference.  Right now you don't know.

wide fov is nice, but also many people are very happy sat 3 feet from a 15" monitor, which is a fov of like 10 degrees (#1 reason people imagine a C172 is roomy like a 744 cockpit imho)

mid peripheral vision starts from 60 degrees

100 degrees is well into mid peripheral, much more than that and you are virtually blind to it.

Pimax still isnt compatible with XP afaik, you also cant buy it anywhere, its also stupidly expensive while offering little compared to an Index or reverb G2. Would be a great headset if it was €400 and XP11 compatible.

 

 

 

Wide FOV makes all the difference for VR. Like black and white to color tv's mate.

22 minutes ago, Greazer said:

Wide FOV makes all the difference for VR. Like black and white to color tv's mate.

Sorry Greazer, but when it comes to you vs Linus for review stuff you just dont have the reputation to put behind such claims.

$1000 headset about the same as a $350 headset because double the FOV means half the dpi.

Edited December 10, 20214 yr by mSparks

You failed to realize that 95% of Linus video's are biased because of sponsors.  Which made your post all the more embarrassing.

 

1 hour ago, Greazer said:

You failed to realize that 95% of Linus video's are biased because of sponsors.  Which made your post all the more embarrassing.

 

he says, posting a video sponsored by pimax (it says in the video description)

Meanwhile Sparker has hands on their latest and he doesn't seem to be claiming its the best thing ever

https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/forums/topic/251733-pimax-8k-x－kdmas/

"uncomfortable and glitchy" are not what you want for a quality experience, least of all when you can get better for half the price already.

Edited December 10, 20214 yr by mSparks