On 12/17/2021 at 8:11 PM, mSparks said:

I very much doubt you will be flying with 30fps VR, your sim may be, but this is part of VR maturing, motion smoothing and reprojection have come a long way in upscaling what you see to acceptable framerates.

The bigger issue with 30fps is the control latency, for just messing around not so much of an issue, but the 60fps lower limits you see in commercial use are actually about control response and physics simulation rather than what you see.

The 744 autopilot for example will struggle to autoland with much less than 50fps in anything but nearly calm conditions, simply because less than that isn't enough data to correlate how the physics is affecting the aircraft, make the correct control adjustments and have them impact the flight path in a suitable amount of time. The other sim had some high comedy AP bugs almost certainly connected to this.

Something less stable like a helo and there is no chance of even a basic stable hover unless you forgo simulating the rotor turbulence completely, which is negative learning turtles all the way down.

I can and do fly at 30fps.  I generally fly helos with no issues - did so in XPlane as well with Bell 407 & 412.  Having a good set of controls (I use the Puma yoke, collective and anti-torque pedals) is just as important for getting a good feel and better to help overcorrecting in the hover than fps.  Both sims are actually computing more physics time steps than the rendered fps anyway.

I go back and forth at times between motion smoothing and not.  The visible artifacts in the rotor disk and sharp edges at pixels with larger depth offsets can sometimes be more off-putting to me than the smoothness.

To me its the same in both XP and MSFS.  In order to enjoy the immersion in XP I had a lot of addons, orthos, custom World2Xplane overlays to try to recreate the world I was hoping to experience.  These things drove the frame rate down to as low as 25 in XP, but it wasnt unplayable or uncomfortable.

Different people have different tolerances for VR - some get motion sick no matter how smooth the experience is.  I'm only saying this to say that "mileage varies" with some of your absolute claims of "must not drop below to enjoy".  It is a personal preference and people can tradeoff detail with fps and still have an enjoyable experience.

2 hours ago, VFXSimmer said:

can and do fly at 30fps.

how are you measuring that given steamvr/openxr doesnt report it unless you are running a developer build of the drivers?

That you are right and ...for example...these guys are wrong

https://help.irisvr.com/hc/en-us/articles/215884547-The-Importance-of-Frame-Rates

just seems.... unlikely.

2 hours ago, VFXSimmer said:

To me its the same in both XP and MSFS.

Well, yes, I agree this would look equally nauseating in either,

you probably should update from 2019 xplane and enable Vulkan, a lot has changed since then.

2 hours ago, VFXSimmer said:

Different people have different tolerances for VR

I just think you are on pretty much your own thinking too low fps in VR (what you see in the headset at 30fps recorded in the above video) is acceptable. 

But I do agree that tolerances differ, that a large enough minority still get ill at 90fps is why Sony requires 120 fps.

Edited December 20, 20214 yr by mSparks

3 hours ago, mSparks said:

That you are right ...

Well I agree with you finally, I am right.

Its ok, some people (like yourself I'm assuming) have a low tolerance for nausea.  For you, its probably imperative that you chose frame rate over visuals.  A pity, but since I totally agree that VR puts 2D to shame, you should go with whatever you need to do in order to not be put off by the experience, because it IS totally worth it.

Some of us don't have that issue and can enjoy the experience of seeing amazing visuals in VR without being forced to accept the limitations of what state of the art hardware can reach at 90fps. 

p.s. I don't need some pundits on a yahoo channel to tell me what I do and don't prefer, so the video you posted was kind of irrelevant.

p.p.s.  The Primax 8kx is absolutely worth it - running at its 'normal' setting gives you 150 degree FOV which is really great for the added peripheral vision.  Expensive.. but what isnt in this silly hobby of ours 😉

p.p.p.s.  The Varjo Aero is even BETTER.. the resolution is at the point that you really start to forget you're looking at a headset.  One of their techs demo'd a model to me the other day and I've put in a preorder.. it was THAT good.

1 hour ago, VFXSimmer said:

Its ok, some people (like yourself I'm assuming) have a low tolerance for nausea.

I'm a 120fps guy tbh, 90fps is ok.

30fps is like driving home after a litre of vodka. Yes some people think they can do it - but its not a fun or good idea imho.

30 fps is at best 15 inputs per second (1 frame to read 1 frame to show). Only people with breathtakingly slow reaction times will be OK with that.

Edited December 20, 20214 yr by mSparks

Just hoping in here again to say - limit my VR experience to 30 or 40fps without frame reprojection, and I will disconnect the headset, head straight towards the backyard and throw the headset in the garbage can, with a pleasure!
Yes, that is how much we are all different! I can enjoy VR only at 80fps (90fps in other headsets, I have Rift S), or in most cases that is 40fps + ASW (frame reprojection). Works wonders in XP11 via SteamVR, it's smooth as Aerofly FS 2 is, it really is! I think I already mentioned that, I sound kinda repetitive now. 🙂
I'm seeing number of posts in XP11 and MSFS forums about that magical formula without frame reprojection, how people can't stand a little bit of artefacts when looking to the side on takeoffs, but can stand that awful ghosting. My eyes are perceiving 40fps as stuttering, really sensitive vision I have. I'm even noticing that ghosting in movies (24fps), and it's not a good thing that my eyes are that sensitive.

Call it a gift or curse, but in VR world it's not a good thing, having sensitive vision. But in video editing, animation etc, that is a gift. 

Edited December 20, 20214 yr by Pe11e

4 minutes ago, Pe11e said:

really sensitive vision I have.

really sensitive are the peeps who need 120fps.

80 is probably bang on normal.

There are a lot of people who don't realise that threashold is the difference between fighting nausea and having no nausea.

Numbers starting to come in to back up the theory. 

Oculus sold more headsets than MS sold XBOX's in 2021....

(Not recommending oculus products, facebook/meta account required)

Edited December 26, 20214 yr by mSparks

Nice one. So Xbox sales are trending upwards. By about 60% in a couple of years.  I guess MSFS GOTY has had an impact right there. 

4 hours ago, Greazer said:

Nice one. So Xbox sales are trending upwards. By about 60% in a couple of years.  I guess MSFS GOTY has had an impact right there. 

Considering Oculus is the smaller of the VR distributers (Reverb G2 probably the biggest selling headset this year), and XBox is some way off actually supporting VR, I'd say if they don't want to see that trend reverse hard once the Valve Gear, PSVR2 and Apple AR/VR glasses hits the market they are going to have to get their act together pretty quick (I don't expect they will).

Yup, essentially you have a new genre of casual flight simmers who are growing the user base. They sim with their controllers sitting on the couch which is kindof interesting. And that is what supports PC development.

42 minutes ago, Greazer said:

Yup, essentially you have a new genre of casual flight simmers who are growing the user base. They sim with their controllers sitting on the couch which is kindof interesting. And that is what supports PC development.

I think you missed that xbox does not support VR.

I always find it interesting, this talk of FPS and nausea / stutter.

I'm perfectly happy, even if the sim FPS go into the teens. I never use any form of reprojection / ASW. Generally I tend to find that for me, anything at, or above 30FPS feels perfectly smooth. 

Interesting how all our biology is very individual, and I suppose I am just lucky in this area!

Ref FOV, see my post regarding the PiMax - Between it and the Index, it just isn't (in my opinion!) as good, and the FOV really wasn't the main factor personally...

For info, I'm using Valve Index.

2 hours ago, severniae said:

I never use any form of reprojection / ASW. Generally I tend to find that for me, anything at, or above 30FPS feels perfectly smooth. 

How on earth can you describe this as "perfectly smooth"?

thats what raw ~35fps in the headset looks like, if it doesn't look like that you are not "30fps with no reprojection"

Edited January 26, 20224 yr by mSparks

I'd like to thank you for reminding me to try VR in a flight simulator.

This may be slightly off-topic since I tried it in the "other one" but all I can say is ... mind blown.

And this is with a laptop 1660TI, which is a weak card for VR.  But even on the lower settings, it's unreal.

Now I just need to get up to a 3060 or better and really participate.

I got my CPL/ATP because of flight simulation on PCs, and back in those days I always thought "one day we will be able to strap on a headset and see this in 3D".

That day has come, and it is glorious 

Edited January 27, 20224 yr by Gulfstream

Another Vr head  set has  emerged  but  going  to  wait  for  a few  years  till the prices  comes  down 🙂

https://varjo.com/products/aero/