1 minute ago, Iadbound said:

Simbol,

Funny you should mention a subscription model.  I posted over in Discord about this saying: "Also, charge something for big updates then. They did for the 777 expansion and they promised a VC update for it. If it takes 3 years to release it or they drop it, it’s PMDG’s prerogative. It’s not a very customer friendly move but so be it. And I know I’m in the minority on this, but I would be fine with a subscription model if PMDG committed to regular and meaningful updates."

 

Yea, unfortunately is not how the majority feels and perceives how these aircraft sales should be done.. I know people that were not willing to pay for the NGXu because in their view it was the same as NGX.. and they refused to pay for the new version.. it shows how the market reacts to DLC software and why your proposal will simply put not go well..

I respect all customers opinions, everyone is entitled to pay and buy what they want.. which means we have to adapt and sell in accordance to what people will do.. it all comes with a price for both sides of the coin...

S.

1 minute ago, simbol said:

Yea, unfortunately is not how the majority feels and perceives how these aircraft sales should be done.. I know people that were not willing to pay for the NGXu because in their view it was the same as NGX.. and they refused to pay for the new version.. it shows how the market reacts to DLC software and why your proposal will simply put not go well..

I respect all customers opinions, everyone is entitled to pay and buy what they want.. which means we have to adapt and sell in accordance to what people will do.. it all comes with a price for both sides of the coin...

S.

I'm not ok with a subscription model, but a fair price for updates is unarguable IMHO.

That way, I get to choose if its worth me buying, the developer gets paid for their work, and that payment is the incentive for them to persuade me to purchase it, as a function of the enhancement it offers me and the price point it is marketed at.

A subscription only works if there's a guaranteed benefit on a regular basis, clearly that is met in the example of Navigraph.  How much of a regular benefit would someone see from the likes of PMDG?  Hmmm...

1 minute ago, kevinfirth said:

I'm not ok with a subscription model, but a fair price for updates is unarguable IMHO.

That way, I get to choose if its worth me buying, the developer gets paid for their work, and that payment is the incentive for them to persuade me to purchase it, as a function of the enhancement it offers me and the price point it is marketed at.

A subscription only works if there's a guaranteed benefit on a regular basis, clearly that is met in the example of Navigraph.  How much of a regular benefit would someone see from the likes of PMDG?  Hmmm...

There are other consolidations / issues for developers too, how could you charge a monthly for an aircraft as a service? you can't.. once installed that's it.. where as with Navigraph, you don't pay.. you don't get the next database.. for them it works..

For the rest of 3rd party add-on's out there all we could do is to say, if you pay for support you get FREE updates for next versions.. but that's about it.. Regarding if PMDG would deliver under a subscription model, we cannot fully judge if it would work or not, but in my view it wouldn't because they would fail to get enough people behind it. For an instance if I personally start charging for support in order to receive updates, the back slash on all social media channels would be, well hilarious..

It is about what the majority of the market think.. and on this subject unfortunately, for an aircraft or most 3rd party add-on's available, most of the customer base rather pay once and forget.. 

S.

 

10 minutes ago, kevinfirth said:

A subscription only works if there's a guaranteed benefit on a regular basis, clearly that is met in the example of Navigraph.  How much of a regular benefit would someone see from the likes of PMDG?  Hmmm...

Correct! A subscription only works if there are regular and meaningful updates.  But fundamentally, I don't have a problem with subscription.  

12 minutes ago, simbol said:

I know people that were not willing to pay for the NGXu because in their view it was the same as NGX.

I was very nearly one of those people. In this case I think it shows PMDG did a very poor job of marketing and demonstrating the value proposition in the NGXu. The main 'benefit' seemed to be emphasized to be 100$ off a future MSFS product, not a huge improvement in the NGX product itself.  Some people surmised, correctly or otherwise, that PMDG were pulling a bit of a fast one to generate revenue.  The product's value proposition therefore varies depending on the intent of the potential customer.  IMHO, is it improved on the NGX original, yes without a shadow of a doubt.  Is it improved to the value of the set price, (not accounting for the discount some were promised from a future product whose feature set now appears to be under threat)? That's a matter for each individual to decide for themselves...

3 minutes ago, simbol said:

It is about what the majority of the market think.. and on this subject unfortunately, for an aircraft or most 3rd party add-on's available, most of the customer base rather pay once and forget.. 

Not sure I'd be as pessimistic.  I think people expect continued support for the lifetime of the major product line it was sold for.  Hence the outrage when aerosoft said they weren't supporting some stuff in 5.3.  Ask those same furious customers whether they'd then pay a bit more for continued support for v6.x and I think quite a large percentage would be ok with that.

5 minutes ago, simbol said:

There are other consolidations / issues for developers too, how could you charge a monthly for an aircraft as a service? you can't.. once installed that's it.. where as with Navigraph, you don't pay.. you don't get the next database.. for them it works..

In PMDG's case, a subscription model might work when coupled with something like GFO, regular updates, automatic new versions, support, bug fixes, etc.  And in the MSFS world, where Asobo's updates seem to interrupt or break things regularly, a subscription model might be even more useful to a company like PMDG. 

Edited December 9, 20214 yr by Iadbound

I get both of you are happy with subscription.. but  I am telling you, flight sim users as a majority doesn't..

so many business went down that path and went down hill already.. even Navgraph surveys asked these questions in the past I believe and it showed most people want to pay once and get unlimited everything! lol 

S.

Edited December 9, 20214 yr by simbol

By far the biggest problem with the subscription model is that most of us don't just fly 1 airplane.  We fly a lot of airplanes.  We have a lot of scenery.  We have a lot of other addons.  So I'm not going to start paying a subscription to each.  

 

Part of me wonders if a CaptainSim will be more successful than a PMDG with MSFS.  People willing to pay small sums for pretty looking planes with inaccurate cockpits etc.  Right now it appears so. 

1 minute ago, micstatic said:

By far the biggest problem with the subscription model is that most of us don't just fly 1 airplane.  We fly a lot of airplanes.  We have a lot of scenery.  We have a lot of other addons.  So I'm not going to start paying a subscription to each.  

 

Part of me wonders if a CaptainSim will be more successful than a PMDG with MSFS.  People willing to pay small sums for pretty looking planes with inaccurate cockpits etc.  Right now it appears so. 

See what I mean? Kevin? and I totally understand the thinking behind.. it just doesn't work..

S.

Edited December 9, 20214 yr by simbol

Just now, simbol said:

I get both of you are happy with subscription.. but  I am telling you, flight sim users as a majority doesn't..

so many business went down that path and went down hill already.. even Navgraph surveys asked these questions in the past I believe and it showed most people want to pay once and get unlimited everything! lol 

S.

I don't doubt you. I'm just used to subscriptions for a variety of software at this point: Adobe, Microsoft Office, specialty products like PC|Miler Rail. But those are essentials for many businesses, and flight sim obviously doesn't fit that model very well.

26 minutes ago, kevinfirth said:

people that were not willing to pay for the NGXu because in their view it was the same as NGX.. and they refused to pay for the new version.

 @simbol It wasn't helped that they said it was built completely from scratch, and some observers, me included, took a healthy dose of cynicism when considering whether each and every vertix was really 'built from scratch'.

The point is, if developers are honest, clear and precise about what benefits a purchase accrues to a customer, including even if that means "support for v x.x only" then people understand that. Where they obfuscate, or worse mislead, it's going to limit people's willingness to part with their cash.

To be clear, I don't aim any of this at you, you say what you'll deliver and do so, often clearly above and beyond what could reasonably be expected 👍

Edited December 9, 20214 yr by kevinfirth

10 minutes ago, simbol said:

See what I mean? Kevin? and I totally understand the thinking behind.. it just doesn't work..

S.

I already said I don't like subscriptions in general.  Show me any reasonable update which someone has put effort into and I'll happily consider an update price commensurate with the benefit to me.

I don't expect to get something for nothing, but neither am I willing to pay something for nothing! Edit: or overpay for hype...

Edited December 9, 20214 yr by kevinfirth

6 minutes ago, kevinfirth said:

The point is, if developers are honest, clear and precise about what benefits a purchase accrues to a customer, including even if that means "support for v x.x only" then people understand that. Where they obfuscate, or worse mislead, it's going to limit people's willingness to part with their cash.

Great point.  I got on Aerosoft's case about this the other day because their P3D aircraft sales materials say you should run the latest P3D versions.  Yet, they get on their forums and then say they might not even test those aircraft for v5.3 compatibility.  You can't have it every which way.  And I don't even own any Aerosoft P3d planes.

Edited December 9, 20214 yr by Iadbound

We've heard companies like FSDT/Aerosoft etc say P3D sales have decimated.  But I sometimes cringe when it comes from a company like them who haven't even produced many (if any) p3d products lately.  I suspect when TFDi releases the MD-11, sales will be good.