My two cents:

MSFS: In my opinion, it will never live up to the standards of those of us that are into system and procedures immersion. For the record, I don't have MSFS, I'm perfectly happy with P3D as the only advantage of MSFS right now is pretty scenery. I may do MSFS when they have a good bush or GA aircraft with system depth, decent AI etc for low and slow. I don't believe Microsoft never intended for it to be a procedurally immersive sim as evidenced by the difficulties PMDG and others are encountering with the SDK. Any attempts to do so will be shoehorned into the sim. I'm not going to get into the whole "game vs sim" controversy but suffice it to say, it is really geared towards folks that want things simple, visually appealing and dare I say "gamier" than the closer to "simulation" X-Plane and P3D. In a year or so, 2 million of the MSFS players will get over the novelty of flying over their house in MSFS and move on to something else and the "system guys" will become frustrated that it never met the complexity levels of P3D and X Plane. And if those sims are still alive, most will migrate back. I understand the 3rd party devs shifting to MSFS because that is where the money is and that is what you do if you run a business. However, when the abandonment of MSFS begins they will be left playing catch up if there isn't at least a little effort continued on the P3D/X-Plane front. This is my prediction.

PMDG: Full disclosure, I have and use frequently the 777, NG, NGXu, 747 and they are amazing products. These guys make some of, if not the best, addons in the business. That said, I cannot express how deeply I loathe the way they run the business and how they treat their customers as strongly as I would like, without being kicked off the forum. While I will not dispute that they are some of the best software devs in the flight sim world, they also are the worst at managing project flow, customer expectations and customer relations. RSR has amassed a pretty impressive business acumen, a very accomplished guy no doubt, but as I read his posts I can't help but picture him smelling his own farts in between eloquent, over wordy and pretentiously composed paragraphs. He never misses an opportunity to show you how much smarter he is than you. Rarely is there a mea culpa, or "yeah, we said we were going to do that, but we screwed up and it's not happening." The delays, unmet expectations and unfulfilled promises are explained away as "not in our control" or "we never said that." In the world of actual business, that BS doesn't fly. I run a very successful construction company. My product is different, but the execution is very similar to what PMDG does. If I ran my company like RSR runs PMDG I would have been out of business a long time ago. Unfortunately, if you don't like PMDG, there is nowhere else to go for a similar product, so if you want to fly a study level Boeing, you pay the money and just sit there while it happens to you. I think this brings to light one of the big challenges of this hobby in that there is no competition between products to foster better products and better customer relations. 

Addressing issues on the PMDG Forum: If you dare post anything negative or critical of PMDG on the PMDG forum, you are met with a barrage of condescension and rudeness by the army of RSR word not allowed or Makrus, who Robert assures me is a super nice guy. Give me 5 minutes and I can produce 20 examples of him being rude and/or condescending to people. That is questionable behavior for other forum members but for the customer rep of PMDG? Unacceptable. Many people have reasonable questions but may not be familiar with flight sims or aviation nomenclature or vernacular and they are met with a bunch of pedantic jerks claiming they don't know what the poster is asking when it is clear what they mean, even though they called something the wrong name or had broken English because it's not their native language. If that isn't bad enough, there is a cadre of forum "Karens" just waiting and salivating over their keyboards for anyone that has the audacity to not SIGN THEIR POST WITH THEIR REAL FIRST AND LAST NAMES! While the original intention of this rule was probably a good one, it has subsequently become a tool with which, people that have miserable lives (I'm assuming), can bludgeon folks into submission to the cult of the PMDG. And it is a cult. The RSR word not allowed army will make you pay if you disparage the almighty! He can do no wrong, they hang on every word of his bloviations and sit and take it when he openly condescends them. I haven't posted on the PMDG in over a year because I can't help sticking up for some poor soul being bullied by the cult of RSR, some Karen dressing down someone that didn't sign their name or Makris making someone feel stupid by being pedantic.

PMDG and MSFS: While I understand shifting focus to MSFS, I think it is short sighted and I don't think it is going to work out the way they think it is with MSFS. I also can't help but think if the PMDG project flow was better organized these "lurching" priority changes could be avoided. The constant changes in priority and moving of the goalposts seems to indicate some chaos at the organizational level. The fact is, as long as there is no competition or as long as we don't take a stand and just stop buying their products, we are at their mercy. Using PMDG is like staying with a super hot girlfriend that can't commit, none of her friends like you, she talks down to you, she costs a lot of money and generally treats you like word not allowed. But, you stay with her because she is the best-looking girl in town, she's fun to fly, and you don't anticipate any better options coming along.

PS. Remember the days when you bought software on hard media? Back then, that junk had to be finished when released. Now we pay good money for incomplete products, early access forever etc.  

Also PS.  PMDG word not allowed insert rage here:

1 hour ago, sivart2000 said:

read his posts I can't help but picture him smelling his own farts in between eloquent, over wordy and pretentiously composed paragraphs. He never misses an opportunity to show you how much smarter he is than you

Own everyone of their products but always felt the same way. Just like that Guy Austin Powers X at that other simulator. When he speaks, I get ill. 🙂

Remember the years when the PR face of PMDG was K.R.? No reasonable question went unsnarked. Every question was salted with the admonition to RTFM. Read the (you insert the f) manuals. Nice.

@sivart2000,

UhOh, you didn't sign your forum name. 🙂

Edited December 10, 20214 yr by Ray Proudfoot
Removed long quoted post.

Great post @sivart2000.

 

Did anyone of you put a false name on PMDG forum? 🙂 

The problem with PMDG is that they still do good products, yes, but they are no longer a precursor in Flight Sim Industry (in comparison to FS Labs, Leonardo, iniBuilds in X-Plane) 

These companies have made huge progress since last few years. To name a few things PMDG haven't implemented in their aircrafts like competition: 

• CPDLC feature - nowadays in the high fidelity/top rated addon in my opinion it is a must, PMDG do not have that (FS Labs, Leonardo, iniBuilds have it) 
• Automated GSX integration 
• Unfinished EFB (let compare it to the FS Labs). They have implemented EFB to the all prodcuts (737/747/777), yes. But for example for Performance Calculator you can only calculate speeds for full lenght runway, like really? There is inop button for the "shortening" option, but yet still no implemented. Compare it with FS Labs and you can see the difference 

The thing is the PMDG is no longer developing "polished" prodcucts like it used to. 

The 777 is the great example. You have to pay 70 bucks for the new variant (777-200ER) but you receive unfinished EFB, old VC cockpit, no LNAV update, etc. Once again compare it to the FS Labs A320/A321 sharklet and how they approached that. 

Edited December 10, 20214 yr by ark4diusz

31 minutes ago, ark4diusz said:

The problem with PMDG is that they still do good products, yes, but they are no longer a precursor in Flight Sim Industry (in comparison to FS Labs, Leonardo, iniBuilds in X-Plane) 

These companies have made huge progress since last few years. To name a few things PMDG haven't implemented in their aircrafts like competition: 

• CPDLC feature - nowadays in the high fidelity/top rated addon in my opinion it is a must, PMDG do not have that (FS Labs, Leonardo, iniBuilds have it) 
• Automated GSX integration 
• Unfinished EFB (let compare it to the FS Labs). They have implemented EFB to the all prodcuts (737/747/777), yes. But for example for Performance Calculator you can only calculate speeds for full lenght runway, like really? There is inop button for the "shortening" option, but yet still no implemented. Compare it with FS Labs and you can see the difference 

The thing is the PMDG is no longer developing "polished" prodcucts like it used to. 

The 777 is the great example. You have to pay 70 bucks for the new variant (777-200ER) but you receive unfinished EFB, old VC cockpit, no LNAV update, etc. Once again compare it to the FS Labs A320/A321 sharklet and how they approached that. 

You can "shorten" the runway in the EFB with a NOTAM, that will give you accurate Vspeeds. A bit more complicated than FSLabs automatic approach, but the possibility is there. IIRC you enter a manual runway lenght with the NOTAM, so for any intersection you just subtract the approriate lenght. I cannot explain precisely how you do it (only recently returned to P3D), but I already did it at least 50 times.

Generally I agree with you, but I have to add, that Leonardo and FSLabs have only made one single airline at study level, while PMDG has made three of them. I'd say they are definitely still a precursor in Flight Sim Industry, even though they have obviously lost some ground (mostly through FSLabs, which is a "contemporary" competitor). Then again they will probably bring the first study level aircraft to MSFS, while FSLabs hasn't even started development (seemingly). They have just shifter their focus away from P3D (which is a pity), so obviously their products in P3D will have less of that EFB etc. stuff. Oh and by the way FSLabs's EFB is only available for the Sharklet versions, so not even them are really "complete".
Just to be clear: I love all of those mentioned devs, and yes, I hope PMDG becomes a bit more customer orientated.

On 12/9/2021 at 2:45 AM, Patco Lch said:

All true but I wonder if developers may be mining fools' gold by pushing P3D aside or abandoning altogether. If PMDG had used the resources they expended toward a 757/767 or MD11 or some other highly desired aircraft for P3D how close they might be now to a generous revenue producing new product to go to market. Can't help but wonder.

Given that PMDG sold more DC6 in MSFS in the first 12 hours, than their combined sales of DC6 on FSX + P3D + XP for all time (source: https://youtu.be/qKadQrREujM?t=557), yeah, I don't think PMDG are going to spend time making a new product just for P3D.  When you sell more in 12 hours of a product on a specific platform, than it took you over a decade to sell on other platforms combined, it's a no brainer for a business person to continue to target that platform where you had record sales in 12 hours only.

The best that P3D users can hope for is that PMDG brings a 757/767 to MSFS, and because PMDG is using P3D tools to develop MSFS products, it doesn't cost PMDG that much extra work to also release the 757/767 on P3D (if you have been following Randazzo's interviews and writeups, PMDG is using P3D debug tools to develop the 737 for MSFS).

Edited December 10, 20214 yr by abrams_tank

7 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

Given that PMDG sold more DC6 in MSFS in the first 12 hours, than their combined sales of DC6 on FSX + P3D + XP for all time (source: https://youtu.be/qKadQrREujM?t=557), yeah, I don't think PMDG are going to spend time making a new product just for P3D.  When you sell more in 12 hours of a product on a specific platform, than it took you over a decade to sell on other platforms, it's a no brainer for a business person to continue to target that platform where you had record sales in 12 hours only.

The best that P3D users can hope for is that PMDG brings a 757/767 to MSFS, and because PMDG is using P3D tools to develop MSFS products, it doesn't cost PMDG that much extra work to also release the 757/767 on P3D (if you have been following Randazzo's interviews and writeups, PMDG is using P3D debug tools to develop the 737 for MSFS).

I seriously hope that when PMDG's 757 releases (2028 or something) I do not have to use P3D anymore for serious airliner simming! 😄

@abrams_tank I a month or two ago I would have agreed with you. But adobo has really started to show an unwillingness or even inability to help developers of complex airliners clear all the hurdles necessary. Not to mention the forced updates and functions that break with each. Who knows at this point?  I mean still “not planning” to open weather up to third parties. Really!!??  

16 minutes ago, micstatic said:

@abrams_tank I a month or two ago I would have agreed with you. But adobo has really started to show an unwillingness or even inability to help developers of complex airliners clear all the hurdles necessary. Not to mention the forced updates and functions that break with each. Who knows at this point?  I mean still “not planning” to open weather up to third parties. Really!!??  

Oh, I agree that MSFS has its shares of update and stability problems.

However, these update problems are ultimately "hiccups" to PMDG.  PMDG is a business, it's about the $$$.  And they made a lot of money selling the DC6 on MSFS.  PMDG could spend another year developing the 737 for MSFS, but if the sales of the 737 for MSFS is 5x or 10x the sales of its past 737 on other platforms, that extra year of development will easily be justified by the revenue they get back for it.

As for the issues that PMDG is having with MSFS, from what I can tell, PMDG is being treated as a first class developer by Microsoft/Asobo (not all 3rd party devs get the first class treatment PMDG gets from Microsoft/Asobo).  That is, PMDG has access to the top people for MSFS (ie. Randazzo has direct access to Jorg).  And PMDG has also become an official partner for MSFS, as announced by Randazzo on the last MSFS Q&A Twitch stream.  I suspect PMDG's issues with the MSFS SDK will get worked on, but it just takes time.  IMO, it's in Microsoft/Asobo's interest to placate PMDG because  Microsoft/Asobo know that PMDG's products will drive more sales of MSFS and get more people onto the MSFS platform.  Again, the common thread here is making more $$$ for Microsoft/Asobo so it's in their interest to placate PMDG.

 I think Simbol's post in this thread sums it up best:

And mind you, one day a much more advanced civilian flight simulator than MSFS may appear in the market.  If droves of consumers switch to this new and better flightsim than MSFS, and the market follows this new flightsim, then 3rd party devs will also deprioritize MSFS and prioritize this new flight sim.  It's about making more $$$ for businesses, it's always been about the $$$.

Edited December 10, 20214 yr by abrams_tank

We all suspect the SDK issues will get worked on.  But in fairness, this should have occurred a long time ago.  I agree with your points nonetheless. 

6 hours ago, Johnny19 said:

Great post @sivart2000.

 

Did anyone of you put a false name on PMDG forum? 🙂 

I was "Art Vandalay" for about 6 months before C. Makris told me to use my real name or be banned. I was super offended because I identify as a "Art Vandalay" even though it isn't my name assigned at birth. Very disrespectful. 

1 minute ago, sivart2000 said:

I was "Art Vandalay" for about 6 months before C. Makris told me to use my real name or be banned. I was super offended because I identify as a "Art Vandalay" even though it isn't my name assigned at birth. Very disrespectful. 

Have you ever noticed one particular guy on the PMDG forum who really gets off tagging people on the name game artfully hides his own full name on a painted 747 so faintly it can’t be read?😂

2 hours ago, abrams_tank said:

Given that PMDG sold more DC6 in MSFS in the first 12 hours, than their combined sales of DC6 on FSX + P3D + XP for all time

I've read that here a few times now. At first, that sounds impressive, but I don't think it's a fair comparison. For P3D, I believe the DC-6 wasn't a big thing, as there were at least a dozen excellent airliners available, which are additionally more relevant (i.e. not historical). Different story for MSFS.

Edited December 10, 20214 yr by d.tsakiris