4 hours ago, neil0311 said:

Why do the British add an “S” to to the end of the word math

There’s no such word as mathematic. 😉 Always plural. Same as physics. I’ve never heard anyone say “physic” so it always baffles (and frustrates) me when I hear “do the math”. Arrgghh! 🤔

10 hours ago, ckyliu said:

I presume no one is monitoring the plugged-in headset apart from the flight deck so you can say what you want 🤣 The context of a plugged-in headset makes it less open to confusion, so I think you can get away with it anyway, but It might not even be proscribed for such use. I wonder if ground vehicle operators get cut more slack with comms on the radio?

If ATC here said "clear to start engines" they'd get chewed out by someone sooner or later, it's always "engine start approved" or "your discretion", and same with "pushback approved", never cleared. This was drilled into me, can you tell? 🤣 About the only thing that didn't get picked up on was "nine" instead of "niner". I'm really fun at parties too.

Headset is not a transmission but a wired connection to the flight deck (sometimes wireless, but still not a transmission on an ATC frequency, so no problem there theoretically at least. However, ever since I used to push out Air France stuff, where they'd commonly do things like releasing the brakes before I'd given them the okay to do so, and worse, cranking the engines on the stand without my okay, often the moment we'd started rolling, I do now always start the push for all aeroplanes - with the exception of the ATR where it can start the engines on stand (invariably in hotel mode) - by saying, after I've given the brake release permission: 'push commencing; standby engines 1 and 2'. 

It's different when in the tug on the radio ground frequency, where we all stick to the approved communications, including all that 'wun', 'fife' and 'niner' malarkey, since that is an open transmission. As with all things communication however, the main things are clarity and brevity above all else.

2 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

There’s no such word as mathematic. 😉 Always plural. Same as physics. I’ve never heard anyone say “physic” so it always baffles (and frustrates) me when I hear “do the math”. Arrgghh! 🤔

“Physic” (without the “s”) is a somewhat archaic term for a laxative!

It’s all in what you are used to. Aviation in the US is amazing. But teaching aviation in the US has a few challenges because of the weird amalgamation of units and terms. Take temperature for example. The US uses degrees F in day to day life. C in aviation. As already noted, we use inHg for atmospheric pressure….until you look at a the station model on some weather depiction charts and find temps in F and pressure in millibars?!?

The whole “position and hold” vs “line up and wait” is really a non-issue. I don’t know many pilots that really had problems in the transition. 

7 hours ago, neil0311 said:

Why do the British add an “S” to to the end of the word math

As others have pointed out, we Brits don't add an S to 'maths', it's generally North Americans who subtract it. 😉 Grammatically, the word Mathematics is a mass noun (also known as a non-count noun, or sometimes an uncountable noun), this means it should always have the S on the end of its full form, since it is part of the the word rather than a word becoming a plural by having an S added to the end of it. But having said that, since Math (and Maths) are abbreviations, there's nothing actually incorrect with these forms, however, when saying the word 'math', it jars with sentence structure a little because it makes it seem like one is trying to make an mass noun into a singular.

9 hours ago, neil0311 said:

Seems to me this was a solution looking for a problem. But be that as it may, and obviously you disagree, your comment that “position and hold” isn’t crystal clear yet “lineup and wait” is…is bonkers.

I’m just an instrument rated private pilot, but I bet if you ask 100 American commercial ATPs, at least 101 would agree with me.

Seems the FAA didn't agree with you though, did they? In fact they changed it because so many Americans were infringing on runways.

"Position and Hold" = Enter an active runway.

"Hold Position" = Don't move, in no circumstance enter an active runway.

Yeah......crystal clear.

And I'm just an ATPL widebody pilot, but I bet if you ask 50,000 English, French, German, Spanish, Italian, Belgian, Portugese, Indian, Dutch, Icelandic, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Indonesian, Mauritian, Turkish, Thai, Kenyan, Madagascan, Nepalese, Australian, Greek, Swedish, Israeli, Austrian, Swiss, Danish, Croatian, Mongolian, and Fijian pilots at least 60,000 would agree with me. 

Edited February 22, 20224 yr by 2reds2whites

9 hours ago, neil0311 said:

Line up? That’s implies being in a line of aircraft, not positioning on the runway or anywhere else.

Wait? Wait for what?

You're the first pilot I've ever met who doesn't know what 'lining up' is!

Edited February 22, 20224 yr by 2reds2whites

3 hours ago, JRBarrett said:

“Physic” (without the “s”) is a somewhat archaic term for a laxative!

🤣 Well you learn something new here every day.

2 hours ago, Chock said:

As others have pointed out, we Brits don't add an S to 'maths', it's generally North Americans who subtract it. 😉 Grammatically, the word Mathematics is a mass noun (also known as a non-count noun, or sometimes an uncountable noun), this means it should always have the S on the end of its full form, since it is part of the the word rather than a word becoming a plural by having an S added to the end of it. But having said that, since Math (and Maths) are abbreviations, there's nothing actually incorrect with these forms, however, when saying the word 'math', it jars with sentence structure a little because it makes it seem like one is trying to make an mass noun into a singular.

Some other things that occasionally burn my ears,, e.g. the phrase "I could care less"... or the lack of the "h" in herb/herbs . 

As for decimals, maybe it's because in some European countries we use "," instead of "." to show decimal numbers. So saying point wouldn't be correct. Using "decimal" is pretty clear and easy to understand

Anyway, we use 'decimal' because 'point' begins with a plosive, which on a non wind-protected mic can make it difficult to hear. 

I don't mind using 'point' in the US, but it can come with a hundred variations.

122.7 could be;

"One two two point seven"

"One twenty two seven"

"One twenty two point seven"

"Twenty two seven"

etc etc.

The frequencies work fine as long as you know the format you're expecting, despite them being a little non-standard.

Edited February 22, 20224 yr by 2reds2whites

11 hours ago, neil0311 said:

Well, standardization is important, but just because “everyone else does it” doesn’t make it better or the correct way. Perhaps the rest of the world should “position and hold” like the US used to do.

But... that IS actually the point of standardization: there's intrinsic safety value in everyone doing something the same way.  Sometimes it doesn't even matter which way that is, as long as we're all doing it the same.  Standardization is the sole reason that any two of us at the airlines can be paired together and fly as an effective crew, despite never even having met before, for instance. 

The FAA doesn't set international standards for ATC phraseology; ICAO does.  So no, the rest of the world shouldn't just "do it our way."  We should get better at doing it the ICAO way. 

In this case, as other have explained, the old "position and hold" verbiage created confusion with "hold position," particularly for non-native English speakers.  We've seen a decrease in runway incursions here since the change.

Sounds like a good change to me. 

I think we can all agree that regional ATC would be a good thing in the sim.  I don't want to do what Europe does when I fly the sim....and they clearly don't want to do what US does lol.  I heard a rumor that WT may be working on ATC as time goes on.  I'm sure they'll get plenty of input

5 minutes ago, ryanbatcund said:

I think we can all agree that regional ATC would be a good thing in the sim.  I don't want to do what Europe does when I fly the sim....and they clearly don't want to do what US does lol.  I heard a rumor that WT may be working on ATC as time goes on.  I'm sure they'll get plenty of input

Agree.  Different voices would be cool, too, like when we change freqs.

2 hours ago, tonywob said:

Some other things that occasionally burn my ears,, e.g. the phrase "I could care less"... or the lack of the "h" in herb/herbs

Sorry for drifting off-topic but I couldn't miss the opportunity to add this one...

"I didn't do nuffink" (nothing) - usually heard when a miscreant is having his collar felt by an officer of the law.

Two negatives so when you remove them it becomes "I did something" thereby admitting he was guilty all along! 🤣

And don't get me started on so many people on the BBC failing to pronounce the letter T unless it's at the start of a word...

"Twi-er (Twitter); Yoo-ni-id (United); Init (Isn't it).

I doubt any would pass the enunciation test for Air Traffic Control.

As a dutch person whose father was an English teacher I find this conversation very amusing😉

As far as I can guess people who say Twi-er are mainly  younger women on dating shows  or reality soaps. Is that  somewhere near the truth?

 

Yoo-ni-id sounds like some soccer fan from north of UK. I could be wrong but hey, how many Dutch words do you guys know....

I learned the word "dreamt" in school as in dreaming, dreamt etc.. I never ever heard anyone pronounce that like "dremt" but always "dreemed".

 

Maybe we were tought some Margaret thatcher English in high school. 

 

Well, I'm gonna concentray on fligh simmin' now😅