5 minutes ago, ckyliu said:

And that's exactly why everyone else DIDN'T use "position and hold" because "hold" is more frequently said when ATC want aircraft holding short of the runway, not on it - "hold position" can easily be confused/misheard as "position and hold" despite meaning exact opposites when issued at the holding point. It's the same reason we only say "cleared" in relation to flight plan, landing and takeoff, you are never "cleared to taxi" unless someone is doing it wrong (i.e. cleared generally means you get use of the runway).

Wait is very much a command pilots know and use, for decades, unless they've never flown outside North America. In which case they should have superlative English anyway.

Well considering that more than 50% of all aviation is in US registered aircraft, and I don’t fly anywhere besides Canada, I find the US phraseology more relevant and accurate, but that’s just me.

And I’ve been flying for 30 years.

You will occasionally hear "decimal" used on the radio in the US, but it's not the norm.  You'll also hear the reference to the decimal point omitted entirely, and that works fine too... "one two three seven five" can only be one freq.

2 minutes ago, ryanbatcund said:

It was best when I was able to say "taxi into position and hold."  Everyone liked that and it was very clear - never had pilots confused about the phraseology. 

From the pilot side, I agree 100%.

Any anecdotal increases in runway incursions since “line up and wait” was instituted?

... That said, standardization is important (referring to the "pos and hold" vs "line up and wait" discussion.)  We're very bad at ICAO standard phraseology in the US, and that was one example of a few where we have (correctly) changed to align ourselves better with ICAO.  There's no downside, other than the natural human resistance to change, which is never a valid argument against it. 

2 minutes ago, neil0311 said:

From the pilot side, I agree 100%.

Any anecdotal increases in runway incursions since “line up and wait” was instituted?

Nope, the opposite.  There's a reason "line up and wait" has been ICAO standard for years.  That's what drove the change. 

1 minute ago, neil0311 said:

From the pilot side, I agree 100%.

Any anecdotal increases in runway incursions since “line up and wait” was instituted?

The higher ups don't tell us anything hehe.  I know they're collecting data and have been since it started though.  If anything I've had more pilots question LUAW - which results in increased transmissions and frequency congestion.  Same thing with giving you guys the full taxi clearance - which we cannot do anymore.  We can only give the route to the hold short point.  I hate this as a pilot as well...  I want to know the entire route so I can quickly preview it on my chart/EFB.

37 minutes ago, neil0311 said:

“Hold” is a command that pilots know. “Wait” isn’t a command pilots know or use.

Anybody skilled enough to go through pilot training is skilled enough to understand the word 'Wait'!

11 minutes ago, ryanbatcund said:

And no one has perfect phraseology all the time on the controller side, US, UK, EUR etc.

I spent 30 years listening to UK ATC before ever hearing  ATC in the USA and I was frankly shocked at some of the exchanges.  The standards in both Countries are for the most part spot on.  When the standard rolls off in the USA you hear sarcasm, raised voices and argumentative responses from the controllers - virtually never in the UK.

3 minutes ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

I spent 30 years listening to UK ATC before ever hearing  ATC in the USA and I was frankly shocked at some of the exchanges.  The standards in both Countries are for the most part spot on.  When the standard rolls off in the USA you hear sarcasm, raised voices and argumentative responses from the controllers - virtually never in the UK.

I'd be curious if the number of ops plays a part where controllers stop using correct phraseology.  Where I worked was a very busy GA airport and 1 or 2 controllers would occasionally be lax on their words...  usually when it got the busiest.  An old trainer of mine told me to just slow down a little when you're busy and you'll spend less time re-stating your words.  He was right!

16 minutes ago, ryanbatcund said:

An old trainer of mine told me to just slow down a little when you're busy and you'll spend less time re-stating your words.  He was right!

And that applies to many other things in life, doesn't it!  Reminds of some lyrics from a Billy Joel song.

Edited February 21, 20224 yr by fppilot

They say decimal for the same reason why they ask you to enter left downwind, when the command should be right downwind. 😀

4 hours ago, neil0311 said:

And it may please you to know that “position and hold” which made complete sense and emphasized holding, has been replaced by the vague and confusing “line up and wait” which was a huge mistake IMHO. “Hold” is a command that pilots know. “Wait” isn’t a command pilots know or use.

Could you perhaps explain what is so confusing about "line up RW XX and wait" for you? It has never confused me while flying in the last decade or thereabouts. You may be under estimating pilots 😂.

There are simply different standards in the US vs rest of the world. Not necessarily bad vs good or anything like that. But for example, in the US you fly for two hours and you will generally still be in the US (assuming you don't start too close to the borders). You'll have a native speaker on ATC and at most an accent. In a lot of other places in the world you may have passed 4-5 different countries with different national languages. Standardization is key then. Everyone should be sticking to agreed standard phraseology to make life easier and safer for everyone involved. And that happens most of the time around Europe in my experience. 

You do often hear a lot more non-standard stuff in US ATC recordings, but if it works it works.

Edited February 21, 20224 yr by Prpn

1 hour ago, ckyliu said:

It's the same reason we only say "cleared" in relation to flight plan, landing and takeoff, you are never "cleared to taxi" unless someone is doing it wrong (i.e. cleared generally means you get use of the runway).

To be fair, I actually do say 'clear' on the headset when advising airliner crews they are okay to crank their engines on a pushback, because most pilots are used to shouting 'clear' before cranking a propeller on the plane they first learned on so it tallies with that, so I don't think when I say 'you are clear to start engines one and two at your discretion' there can be much confusion as to what I mean, at least I've never found that to be the case, even with crews whose native language is not English. Unless it's Air France, they just do what they want and ignore everyone's instructions anyway.

3 hours ago, Chock said:

It's because there can't really be any confusion when using the word decimal; it has three syllables so it can't easily be stomped on by a break in transmission

That right, that's why in France we are not using un "one" but unité  

3 hours ago, Chock said:

To be fair, I actually do say 'clear' on the headset when advising airliner crews they are okay to crank their engines on a pushback, because most pilots are used to shouting 'clear' before cranking a propeller on the plane they first learned on so it tallies with that, so I don't think when I say 'you are clear to start engines one and two at your discretion' there can be much confusion as to what I mean, at least I've never found that to be the case, even with crews whose native language is not English. Unless it's Air France, they just do what they want and ignore everyone's instructions anyway.

"As a Loadmaster 'Clear' was used regularly in relation to engine start.

Pilot: "Clear No 4".

Loadmaster: "No 4 Clear"

Pilot: "Starter"

Loadmaster: "Rotation".

In fairness though, it is different phase of the flight (in this case inter-crew comms) and 'Clear' is a very important part of engine start challenge and response checklists, if no person or any thing is to get hurt or damaged. I've heard GA pilots say it quietly to themselves as if forcing themselves to check before starting. But as discussed above, it may not be appropriate to carry the word into other phases of the departure where it could be confused with more flight critical instructions. Having said that, I always felt the freq change determined which words were appropriate for that particular phase of flight. Clearance, Engineering during start, Ground during taxi, the Tower for departure, so that if Ground gives a 'Cleared to taxi'...it cant really be confused with anything from Clearance or Tower because your not on that freq. Of course at anything but large airports, these functions do get run together and I guess there can then be some confusion if instructions are not......clear? 😏      

Edited February 21, 20224 yr by Lord Farringdon