8 hours ago, neil0311 said:

Right but just because “Mathematics” ends in an “S” doesn’t make it plural. It’s a discipline. 

What’s the singular then?

Point accepted. It isn’t plural. So I hope you will accept that “math” is incorrect and should not be used.

8 hours ago, neil0311 said:

And let’s also think about other similar words like orthodontics which is normally shortened to “ortho” not orthos.

The “ics” doesn’t denote plural.

Different argument. Not relevant to current discussion of why Americans omit the ‘s’ off maths.

Please be careful with your tone when answering points raised. Keep it moderate and respectful.

14 hours ago, icewater5 said:

I love that in the US iff you ask the waitress for a glass of water (pronounced with the "T")  you wont get one😁

I must have been lucky then. In my New York hotel they didn't even remark on my English accent! (And I got a glass of water).

6 hours ago, MadDog said:

Why do Europeans refer to the final approach phase of flight as being "on finals"?

Is it really that difficult to get everybody over there to agree on a single transition level/altitude? 😉

Bonus comment:  The U.S. phraseology is actually much more precise when issuing altitude assignments... Climb and maintain/Descend and maintain.

1) The term relates to the traffic circuit ("pattern" as it's known in the USA, i.e. downwind, base, finals) and is defined as being closer than 4 miles to touchdown and aligned with the runway heading. Even if aircraft haven't been in the circuit and come straight in, I believe the term is still correct.

2) EASA/JAA is trying (suspect you already know about Harmonised Transition Altitude based on your wink lol). The UK doesn't even have a nationwide TA, it's between 3000 and 6000 ft 🤦so you have to check each aerodromes chart. It's a bit of an anachronism stemming back to the 1950s when TA was set as low as possible because many enroute facilities could not provide a QNH. Apparently most of EU is going for 18,000 ft but I was an advocate of the 10,000 ft option. I'm not sure how either proposal would implement the Transition layer (the bit between TA and TL to ensure aircraft on different pressure settings don't have reduced vertical separation), in the UK implementation TL is set by ATC to ensure separation - forgive me for answering a question with a question but how does this work in the USA as I'm not aware of any transition layer - is it forbidden to cruise at 17,000 ft?

3) I believe "and maintain" was considered superfluous, therefore maintain is only used where an aircraft is already at that altitude/level. "Climb and maintain One Five Fifteen Thousand" I heard all the time stateside but surely its just "One Five Thousand" per FAA spec?

My bonus: Why is it called a ramp? It's flat! Ramp to me means something with an incline (i.e. not level)?

Edited February 23, 20224 yr by ckyliu

ckyliu, "Finals" is not correct here in the UK...its used by far too many pilots but its not correct it should simply be "Final" an abbreviated form of Final Approach and you can only do one at a time, I think maddogs reference is to  this being improper usage.

 

maddog, "Climb and Maintain is used in the UK

The transition level thing, I agree the UK usage is a dumb mess

3 hours ago, MadDog said:

I would agree with you if the data was analyzed in a vacuum.  However, there have been much more intensive efforts to prevent runway incursions other than just changing the "position and hold" phraseology... hot spot designations on airport diagrams, enhanced surface surveillance radar, runway status lights, RAAS, runway occupancy memory aids in the tower, increased pilot and controller training (and that's just to name a few).  Personally, I believe the other measures have contributed much more to the shift in data than the adoption of the ICAO verbiage.

All true and all good things, and you're likely right that many of them had a greater impact than the verbaige change. I could have been clearer - I wasn't meaning that the data was simply an overall reduction in incursion incidents.  I mean we specifically see significantly fewer incursions caused or contributed to by miscommunication now (this is based on controller ASAP data).

42 minutes ago, Pathfinder633 said:

ckyliu, "Finals" is not correct here in the UK...its used by far too many pilots but its not correct it should simply be "Final" an abbreviated form of Final Approach and you can only do one at a time, I think maddogs reference is to  this being improper usage.

 

maddog, "Climb and Maintain is used in the UK

The transition level thing, I agree the UK usage is a dumb mess

One in aviation which irritates me that you see from time to time, and it actually appears on a poster supplied to us from an airline on the wall in our crew room where they should know better, is 'aircrafts', i.e. that poster says: 'please take good care of our aircrafts'. Of course 'aircraft' is an irregular plural noun, similar to 'deer', 'fish', 'sheep' etc, where the plural is the same as the singular. If they'd have put 'airplanes' or 'aeroplanes' instead, that would have solved the problem for them.

Having said that, it is true that English is a really bizarre language when it comes to all its rules about this stuff, and yes, we do tend to all say that an aeroplane is on 'finals' when it really should be on its 'final'. I think a lot of that is down to new people simply hearing others say it and adopting the same use without thinking about it. It might irritate people somewhat to observe such grammatical errors, but it's worth bearing in mind that language does evolve based on its usage, where the common usage eventually ends up being the de-facto correct form at least.

Edited February 23, 20224 yr by Chock

39 minutes ago, Pathfinder633 said:

maddog, "Climb and Maintain is used in the UK

Nothing in CAP 413 would allow this. Maintain is only used in instructions such as maintain current heading or maintain current altitude.

1 hour ago, Chock said:

eventually ends up being the de-facto correct form at least.

In most cases, it is a retrogressive change. (IMHO).

2 minutes ago, IanHarrison said:

In most cases, it is a retrogressive change. (IMHO).

Being that I used to work as a writer for my daily job and still do it on occasion, you'll get no argument from me on that score, but trying to police it or even getting annoyed about it, is like handing out speeding tickets at a formula one race. Having said that, I might one day consider loading a container ship with a mercy mission full of adverbs and sailing them over to America, where they appear to be in desperately short supply. 🤣

"Behind the landing triple 7, line up and wait runway 27R behind".  The use of behind twice seems like its not needed.  thoughts?

15 hours ago, neil0311 said:

And let’s also think about other similar words like orthodontics which is normally shortened to “ortho” not orthos.

The “ics” doesn’t denote plural.

Agree.  Math is an abbreviation for mathematics.  The people who say maths are just trying to sound smarter than they really are.

2 hours ago, Chock said:

Being that I used to work as a writer for my daily job and still do it on occasion, you'll get no argument from me on that score, but trying to police it or even getting annoyed about it, is like handing out speeding tickets at a formula one race. Having said that, I might one day consider loading a container ship with a mercy mission full of adverbs and sailing them over to America, where they appear to be in desperately short supply. 🤣

Along with a handful of letter "t"s to replace the "d" which appears in the middle of words (when spoken).

2 hours ago, MarkW said:

"Behind the landing triple 7, line up and wait runway 27R behind".  The use of behind twice seems like its not needed.  thoughts?

That is an ATC conditional clearance.

Those are always a little more tricky (what if first words are clipped?) and will increase risk of misunderstandings. An easy way to mitigate any chance of confusions/misunderstandings is to repeat the "conditional"-part after the actual clearance.

Edited February 23, 20224 yr by SAS443

1 hour ago, SpaceForceCapt said:

Agree.  Math is an abbreviation for mathematics.  The people who say maths are just trying to sound smarter than they really are.

That is preposterous . Maths is British, math is a deviation of the Colonies, which we Brits never had a chance to correct, due to a certain insurrection..