That is my point guys. This AI thing is very nice to squeeze even more data where it's unavailable otherwise.

From these shots, nothing has changed since last time I tried. It misses entirely the seaport with cranes next to RW16. It completely lacks a proper industrial area behind RW34 + the bridge does not look anything like in reality, it also has street lights that are missing. 

All of those are immediate obstacles.

Not that x-plane 11 is better yeah? Although it does depict the bridge I mentioned above + street lights.

Note both cases are default, the 2 chimnies as I understand are 3rd party.

But instead of waiting for MS to train whatever the AI does I'll wait for x-plane 12 that should include proper assets for all those, and this data IS available in OSM.

That is what i'm talking about, x-plane has big advantage in that they can  hire more artists. From there, it's all about algos and what data can be shipped as they have no streaming.

So hopefully you understand my lack of hype avout blackshark and AI. 

I would much rather a worldwide gateway not just for airports like x-plane, MS can stream so there are much less hardrive/SSD limitations. 

MSFS is a 10 years proejct, maybe in 10 years LR can have streaming? Who knows but meanwhile, imo their approach can be more suitable, of course lets wait for x-plane 12 and see how it'll be.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Daube said:

Concerning the rendition of OSM data in the sim, were there already discussions about the various kind of autogen buildings in XPlane ?

Right now in XP11 it's limited to European (German?) or American style, right ? Has this been enriched since then ? What's the plan for XP12 ?

Regional stuff are not mentioned, but it is very easy to do in x-plane system.

Its all about creating more and more assets. I could not care less about my house footprints, if obstacles and VFR needed elements are available. I would much rather have a nice looking house created by a good artist instead and 3rd party do more landmarks as photogrammetry looks very bad imo, not so excited to see my house all melted 😅

Edited June 5, 20224 yr by mtaxp

10 minutes ago, Daube said:

Concerning the rendition of OSM data in the sim, were there already discussions about the various kind of autogen buildings in XPlane ?

Right now in XP11 it's limited to European (German?) or American style, right ? Has this been enriched since then ? What's the plan for XP12 ?

XP11 did not use all OSM data...Simheaven had this done in their packages...

As for how the data is rendered, the type of 3D assets + Facades are, yes, limited to the mentioned regions..

So it is a matter of using more data + more asset productions to make for example the middle east house look different from Ger or US...

This could be done by dividing the virtual world into more regions or sub regions and then additional 3D + texture assets are produced by many digital artists to make the architecture of each region and sub-region adapted to real life aspect....

Technologically it is very easy, but then it is production time and budget... And the fact they are interested to put $ on this or rather leave it for 3rd party...

Edited June 5, 20224 yr by Claviateur

Well, if the data is available in OSM as you said, then there's no reason these buildings and other assets couldn't become available in both sims, don't you think ?

I mean, I mentioned earlier the examples of powerlines and ski lifts. Thanks to a freeware addon based on the available OSM data, MSFS now has proper powerlines everwhere in the world. I suppose similar examples already exist for XPlane as well (not for powerlines, since XP already had them, but stuff like XEurope and such) and more examples will come. The question is: would that come from the base sim (by MSFS/XP devs) or from third parties ? From my side, I don't really care, as long as we get them for free 😄

3 minutes ago, mtaxp said:

Regional stuff are not mentioned, but it is very easy to do in x-plane system.

Its all about creating more and more assets. I could not care less about my house footprints, if obstacles and VFR needed elements are available. I would much rather have a nice looking house created by a good artist instead and 3rd party do more landmarks as photogrammetry looks very bad imo, not so excited to see my house all melted 😅

Hmm, I see what you mean. I don't remember very well but I think somebody did something like that for Japan, right ?

I would not underestimate how important these are, though. Photogrammetry is not available everywhere in the world for the moment, so it's quite nice, when flying VFR, to be able to enjoy a plausible world anywhere. For example, I did some flights in middle east countries (Afghanistan and such) and I was pleasantly surprised at the result in MSFS by default. The autogen houses/buildings were not european style, and the general colors were in accordance with the rest of the scenery. 

Of course VFR obstacles and point of interests are critical. But I feel like it's much easier to add missing VOR antennas than adding realistic local autogen.

1 minute ago, Daube said:

Well, if the data is available in OSM as you said, then there's no reason these buildings and other assets couldn't become available in both sims, don't you think ?

I mean, I mentioned earlier the examples of powerlines and ski lifts. Thanks to a freeware addon based on the available OSM data, MSFS now has proper powerlines everwhere in the world. I suppose similar examples already exist for XPlane as well (not for powerlines, since XP already had them, but stuff like XEurope and such) and more examples will come. The question is: would that come from the base sim (by MSFS/XP devs) or from third parties ? From my side, I don't really care, as long as we get them for free 😄

Yes, precisely... If I can do this for XP11, Simheaven did this massively and now 3rd party dev are doing it for MSFS, then LR and MS/Asobo can without any doubt do it...

But then it is a matter of what to spend money on first and what feature is more important to release in the next update... And again, how many additional assets need to be produced to render the data that has no assets in both sims default object library...

Again, I think I heard MS/Asobo mentioning in one of the Dev Q&A, following a question, that OSM data rendition is on their to do list... But I suppose they would still filter out many of it for xy reasons...

7 minutes ago, Daube said:

Hmm, I see what you mean. I don't remember very well but I think somebody did something like that for Japan, right ?

I would not underestimate how important these are, though. Photogrammetry is not available everywhere in the world for the moment, so it's quite nice, when flying VFR, to be able to enjoy a plausible world anywhere. For example, I did some flights in middle east countries (Afghanistan and such) and I was pleasantly surprised at the result in MSFS by default. The autogen houses/buildings were not european style, and the general colors were in accordance with the rest of the scenery. 

Of course VFR obstacles and point of interests are critical. But I feel like it's much easier to add missing VOR antennas than adding realistic local autogen.

Yes the strength of the default world engine of MS Sim is precisely the massive data worlwide + the smart way of rendering it with adapted and regional 3D extrusions with details and color adapted to the terrain ambiance... And yes photogrammetry can be easily switched off to have 100% data driven procedural world...

But for the VFR obstacles, I think it is more straight forward for 3rd party devs to do that (i.e: Simheaven do not need to worry about filtering out data that is critical for this and that) rather than the official companies trying to see what data should be omitted and in what area etc..

I can't wait to see who will come up with the next gen of of world engine where the MS Sim bar is raised again to another level... For VFR 

Edited June 5, 20224 yr by Claviateur

1 minute ago, Claviateur said:

Yes, precisely... If I can do this for XP11, Simheaven did this massively and now 3rd party dev are doing it for MSFS, then LR and MS/Asobo can without any doubt do it...

But then it is a matter of what to spend money on first and what feature is more important to release in the next update... And again, how many additional assets need to be produced to render the data that has no assets in both sims default object library...

Again, I think I heard MS/Asobo mentioning in one of the Dev Q&A, following a question, that OSM data rendition is on their to do list... But I suppose they would still filter out many of it for xy reasons...

You raised the doubt pretty nicely: Asobo has already demonstrated many times they often tend to focus on content instead of features (or fixes...). I don't want to be too harsh with them, but sometimes I wish I could tell them "will you focus on these word not allowed things instead of these useless ones... !!??" or something like that 😄

We're fortunate to have such a prolific addon community, really.

9 hours ago, mSparks said:

 

Its one thing to say that blackshark ai is giving you a highly detailed entire world with building footprints matched with fancy AI.

But if its missing lots of the buildings you need for a flight simulator - and you also can not add them.... its a bit dishonest to say that decade old bad options are actually new, innovative good options.

Where do you get the idea that “you can’t add them”.  As a matter of fact, MSFS comes with a built in scenery editor that is actually a lot easier and more intuitive than WED.  And the library of objects you can use in the MSFS tool is actually a lot larger and more detailed than what I had available in XP11.  I’ve used both tools extensively so I can talk from experience.
 

It’s actually easy to make changes as a user and the scenery editor works in the live sim so you can interactively place and move objects in real time as opposed to having to wait to restart the sim to check your results (as with WED).  One only need to look at the 10’s of thousands of freeware offerings online, many of which tweek buildings here or there or add custom POIs that the “locals” know about, to see the success of the process.
 

I don’t really care for much of this conversation (just came to get the latest on XP12 - which I’m genuinely interested and excited about), but I wanted to correct this small bit of misinformation.  With luck LR can update WED to be an “in-engine” process as well so it can tap into user enthusiasm as easily as MSFS does now.  It’s nice when the “tide” of tech innovation in our hobby “raises all boats” as the saying goes.

Edited June 5, 20224 yr by VFXSimmer

1 minute ago, Daube said:

You raised the doubt pretty nicely: Asobo has already demonstrated many times they often tend to focus on content instead of features (or fixes...). I don't want to be too harsh with them, but sometimes I wish I could tell them "will you focus on these word not allowed things instead of these useless ones... !!??" or something like that 😄

We're fortunate to have such a prolific addon community, really.

Asobo work on a software for MS and the stakeholders are at MS... Asobo make decisions for sure but need to prioritize what MS wish to make priority..

Also I believe other dev groups known in the world of scenery design are helping with many types of asset productions...

These platforms are very complex and the backlog list of feature is huge... So is the bug list... And you need a lot of resources to cover all this...

12 minutes ago, VFXSimmer said:

Where do you get the idea that “you can’t add them”.  As a matter of fact, MSFS comes with a built in scenery editor that is actually a lot easier and more intuitive than WED.  And the library of objects you can use in the MSFS tool is actually a lot larger and more detailed than what I had available in XP11.  I’ve used both tools extensively so I can talk from experience.
 

It’s actually easy to make changes as a user and the scenery editor works in the live sim so you can interactively place and move objects in real time as opposed to having to wait to restart the sim to check your results (as with WED).  One only need to look at the 10’s of thousands of freeware offerings online, many of which tweek buildings here or there or add custom POIs that the “locals” know about.  
 

I don’t really care for much of this conversation (just came to get the latest on XP12 - which I’m genuinely interested and excited about), but I wanted to correct this small bit of misinformation.  With luck LR can update WED to be an in engine process as well so it can tap into user enthusiasm as easily as MSFS does now.  It’s nice when the “tide” of tech innovation in our hobby “raises all boats” as the saying goes.

Well, all this again comes to the fact that there is a sort of obsession with the so called Blackshark + AI and the refusal to accept the explanations brought here on how the AI works and how the data is processed later by the prod team...

No matter how many people here explain it technically, there is still this obsession with AI failed to magically build an infrastructure XY... 

For a living, I work in an aircraft manufacture company as a user experience lead for a software using AI for real aviation purposes and although I am not an expert like my engineer colleagues, I know how the AI is being trained for this matter and how x y z is achieved with the training...  Yet now that I hear this obsession with the misleading and misinformation about Blackshark AI failure in this thread, I believe that it is useless to explain anything... 

And then the other obsession is about the photogrammetry city centers (that can be disabled) and that became sadly the other misinformed and wrong definition of MS Sim scenery (in the XP community, from top down)...

Edited June 5, 20224 yr by Claviateur

10 hours ago, mrueedi said:

Again, what was wrong with Val? It was clearly visible, not missing, it stood out nicely from the surrounding terrain.

grab the - i believe freeware, but I suspect the site that came up #1 in google might be a pirate site so I wont link it - r44 for msfs

set your weather to mvfr

turn off any gps or moving maps (during training you dont use them)

depart lybe, fly to OBR,

at OBR fly magnetic heading 207 at 90kts groundspeed for 14 minutes 50 seconds.

at VAL turn to and hold magnetic heading 331 and fly 90kts groundspeed for 30 minutes 13 seconds to SMI

at SMI turn magnetic heading 76 and fly 90kts groundspeed for 6 minutes 40 seconds to land safely at LYSM

Dont land safely at LYSM = you failed, maybe died, get lost is costing you $750 plus an hour to find where you are. 

no cheating. you can bring a 1:250k printed map with you if you do get lost - but good luck using it when you need both hands to fly.. 

here's all that and a bit more in a table

Edited June 5, 20224 yr by mSparks

9 hours ago, Claviateur said:

about Blackshark AI failure in this thread

Its not blackshark that failed to create building footprints.

Its the natural outcome of throwing money at a team whose sole experience of aviation is in house copies of xplane to learn how its done and the CEO starting his PPL(P) licence.

I wish all flight sim development had needed was a B team game dev team to put in their particular expertise to the pot, but that expertise was never what made flight sim hard, time consuming, expensive and incomplete. 

Edited June 6, 20224 yr by mSparks

8 hours ago, mSparks said:

grab the - i believe freeware, but I suspect the site that came up #1 in google might be a pirate site so I wont link it - r44 for msfs

set your weather to mvfr

turn off any gps or moving maps (during training you dont use them)

depart lybe, fly to OBR,

at OBR fly magnetic heading 207 at 90kts groundspeed for 14 minutes 50 seconds.

at VAL turn to and hold magnetic heading 331 and fly 90kts groundspeed for 30 minutes 13 seconds to SMI

at SMI turn magnetic heading 76 and fly 90kts groundspeed for 6 minutes 40 seconds to land safely at LYSM

Dont land safely at LYSM = you failed, maybe died, get lost is costing you $750 plus an hour to find where you are. 

no cheating. you can bring a 1:250k printed map with you if you do get lost - but good luck using it when you need both hands to fly.. 

here's all that and a bit more in a table

I suppose the point of your message is to tell people that without a 3D object for the VOR antennas, it's impossible to find it on the ground and then you will get lost ? I understand some VORs might be harder to spot than others, yes. OBR seems to be a good example, as it doesn't stand out as much as VAL does.

But are you supposed to perform such a navigation exercise without tunning the VOR frequencies in your instruments ?

 

Finally, I also searched for the R44 for MSFS on google and the first result is from flightsim.to. If your first result was a pirate site, there's something wrong in your computer or your browser history 😄

 

53 minutes ago, Daube said:

exercise without tunning the VOR frequencies in your instruments ?

Using nav radios is part of an IFR qualification, plus they arent always switched on.

The point of the exercise isn't about "getting from A to B"

during "normal" flight thats fairly easy, you can use a gps receiver, radio nav, tablet.

Instead its about developing accurate visual navigation under "worst case" situations - e.g. flying alone and all your electronics have failed and visibility is poor.

Schools wont (shouldnt) sign you off to even take the exam until they are satisfied you can bring an aircraft home safely from any point in a flight plan with nothing but a watch and magnetic compass.

Its those skills that result in "the miracle of the Hudson ", and a lack of those skills which result in mid air collisions around airports because someone cut a corner in the traffic pattern.