FSLabs and Fenix Sim Airbus A320's.

[Ramzanovsky 26]

FSLabs while a great simulation has terrible performance, will not be out for probably years, looks alot worse visually unless they overahaul their 3d model completely and will most likely cost three times as much as the Fenix that is available right now. Sharklets and IAE engines will be free updates for the Fenix, something many other developers (FSLabs included) would happily charge extra for.

All of the real-world A320 pilots that I'm aware of (Blackbox711, V1-Simulations, 320 Sim pilot, etc.) are on the record saying that the Fenix is the best A320 that they have ever flown in a sim and that it is the new gold standard for study-level aircraft in their opinion.

Apart from that, I personally just really enjoy the way the Fenix dev team is interacting with the community. Aamir chiming in and patiently answering questions and helping people and them generally being very open and transparent about their development process. It's such a breath of fresh air compared to the way some other devs go about things, keeping you in the dark about their plans, not even allowing you to read or participate in their forums etc.

[Ekim 30]

The whole Fenix Package in Msfs at the moment is not comparable at the moment with th Fslabs Package in P3d. 

Much prettier but inconsistent. 

Maybe after som patches and updates, but not today.

[suncoastflyer 685]

Fenix is doing wonders for me. Great systems (I'm not in a position to compare to FSL, I have flown both I just don't know much about them) and FPS is better than P3D all the while looking stonkingly good. No complaints. If Fenix keep good and release the updates with IAE and sharklets then at least from me, FSL was too little too late.

[MarioDonick 752]

44 minutes ago, Ekim said:

Much prettier but inconsistent. 

Interesting. Can you elaborate on that a bit?

[Nyxx 6,993]

I totaly understand why people want to compare the Fenix to the FSL, just not sure it's totaly fair.

( Note: Not flown the FSL since the release of MSFS, this is pure from memory using the FSL for years, I am a huge FSL fan, OK now lets move on)

I will start with the Fenix.

The Fenix has the best VC I have ever seen, the EFB is a joy and the best I've ever used. Value for money nothing comes close. Blar blar blar....its stunning.

What I dont like, The sounds of the engines seem to have a base drone even if i turn my Eq to a flat line still seems to basey to me. Engines are a bit to load in the VC. It will not keep my C&D as default load state. I hate that. Its push back does not work, its hit and miss. (The free great one is deleted). The aircraft seems to lose speed much faster then I remember on final approach and pitch angle is lower per flaps than I remember. Flare logic is not right, as I remember it.

Now thats out the way, this is a few days old, the FSL on release was....a FPS hog and no where close to how it is years later with all the polish FSL added over that time. I think Aamir and the team could  make a huge list of whats not right atm and I am sure they will work through it. They seen as OCD as the boys over at FSL.

So is the Fenix as good as the FSL? Yes and No, It does not have the polish and refindment the FSL has, but it's heads and shoulders above in some areas. Also its been built for MSFS from the ground up and we can use it in MSFS. 

So I look forward to the ride and what it brings, was this going to be perfect out the box....ofc not. Name a plane that was? The FSL was far from it. Also MSFS itself is still new unlike P3D and that's a lip stick version of FSX.

If you want as close to perfection of a A320 fly the FSL with GSXv2 in P3D.

But P3D is nothing like MSFS and personly would never go back to P3D to fly anything, not even the FSL. I will happy take the release Version 1 of the Fenix and MSFS anyday without a question. The FSL took 7 years to make and has had around 5 years polish added and the Fenix is 3 days old. Come on....is that really compairing apples to apples?

The Fenix out of the box is a masterpiece from a NEW dev. 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Nyxx

[DavidP 1,412]

The fickleness of simmers knows no bounds.

[lwt1971 7,417]

7 hours ago, haseen said:

I use fslabs A320 in my p3d v5. I also use msfs2020. Fenix has released A320 for msfs2020. FSLabs will also make the same for msfs2020. Also fslabs will do A320 neo and A330 for both p3d and msfs2020. Now, I am totally confused whether I should go for Fenix or wait for FSLabs!

Haseen Ahmad.

So just going by the systems, flight model & aerodynamics/handling, depth of simulation, and intentionally excluding the visuals from comparison since FSLabs' offerings only exist for P3D at the moment... just going by these factors, let's see what the experts say (these are both veteran simmers and IRL pilots on the Airbus as captains/FOs):

Into the Blue Simulations: 
- https://youtu.be/x-j-JvXglDo?t=4100: "Thoroughly impressed with everything ... not much negative to say, long list of positives ... sounds really top notch in cockpit ambience and engine sounds ... flight model is hands down the best airbus experience I've ever had in any sim, small negative where auto thrust came on too quickly at times, pretty amazing overall and very true to life ... systems modelling top of the class"

V1 Simulations:
- "this EFB is blowing my mind ... this failure landing distance procedure is better than what we do in real life"
- "this is the closest airbus simulation I've ever flown to the real aircraft, period ... it's the benchmark" (watch from here onwards: https://youtu.be/YbOkK-eWtJI?t=6451)
- watch his video from https://youtu.be/YbOkK-eWtJI?t=4547 onwards where he does a hydraulics green system failure and then IRL procedures all the way to a diverted landing with gravity gear extensions, slow surface controls deployments, etc
- "the immersion that you get from this airplane is nothing like what you've seen before, you saw a little bit of it with FSLabs" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbXqAew3kRg)

320 Sim Pilot:
- has had nothing but compliments for the Fenix, check out his videos here: https://www.youtube.com/c/320SimPilot/videos
- "I can't express how happy I am about the handling of this aircraft, fantastic"
- "Love hand flying the Fenix a320, just behaves like the real aircraft.. this is all with default default controller settings even"

Just some quotes from expert reviews, FWIW... Now add to this the visual fidelity and the amazing price, and then it's clear how the Fenix stands against the FSLabs and other offerings. There are tonnes more expert reviews out there. General consensus is that it is better than previous airbus/320 simulation offerings on any sim platform... and I'd say also nearly a general consensus that it's the deepest most immersive aircraft in any simulation, period.

FSLabs will likely take ages to put something out as that is their M.O, and also they likely will port a bulk of their existing codebase, so it won't be a ground-up development following native MSFS best practices... given all this, I think the choice is very clear at the mo :) My advice is to wait and then get whatever FSLabs are able to put out for MSFS that's not been done by that time at a high enough fidelity: i.e. Concorde, A330, etc.

Edited May 21, 2022 by lwt1971

[Greazer 1,321]

7 hours ago, jbdbow1970 said:

Get the Fenix (it's Really good) you will not see a FS Labs product for a couple of years in MSFS, that's my guess.

Don't wait for FSLabs vaporware which may never come.  I bet within 2 years Fenix will have a Neo out anyway.  And Fenix will be far more superior in quality than anything from FSLabs.  

Even if FSLabs do come out with a 320 - they will have to price it at 20 bucks in the market place. And by then they will have to compete with the Freeware Fly by Wire which will probably be better for Free 🤣

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Greazer

[regis9 4,014]

Coming from someone who extensively flew and loved the FSLabs Airbus in P3D, I say buy the Fenix.  It’s fantastic and I’m sure will only get more fantastic as the dev team continues to finesse it, add new features etc.

It’s cheap too.

[mrueedi 702]

4 hours ago, 320Driver said:

All sorts of visuals completely put aside, it is custom flight and engine model, as was mentioned. No developer could come up with it yet.

This is not true. Here is the open source flying brick sample. Fenix using the MSFS flight model does not mean, that they could not have built their own. It just means, that the added benefit was not worth the effort. Which is a testimony for the MSFS flight model itself.

[overspeed3 410]

My own rather frustrating experience with FSL's products using FSX was that installation and/or re-installation was way too complicated:  Maybe they will make it easier with MSFS2020?  In any case, I'm going with Fenix...

Edited May 21, 2022 by overspeed3

[lwt1971 7,417]

5 hours ago, 320Driver said:

Well, let's wait and see if any custom engine/flight model are really possible and will lead to correct these shortcomings. Or are just wishful thinking.

And let's wait and see if MSFS continues to develop into a serious airliner simulation. Which it isn't yet, but might be by then.

Aamir has already confirmed on their discord before that the Fenix uses the core MSFS flight-model/aerodynamics engine (only thing they do external is systems), which is indeed a testament to MSFS as @mrueedi says above... and also I don't think it's really possible to have an add-on aircraft use a custom flight model completely external to MSFS, see https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/619099-fenix-nda-lifted-at-1200z/?do=findComment&comment=4776709

As to waiting and seeing if MSFS continues to develop into a serious airliner simulation, I think for the vast majority of us simmers, along with a vast majority of expert IRL pilots who also sim, it's pretty clear in the last few weeks that MSFS is indeed a very serious airliner+GA simulation :) ... as the Bae 146, Maddog MD80, PMDG 737, Fenix A320, Milviz C310, FSW 414, default C172, etc etc have more than proven... iniBuilds have recently said their MSFS A310 is coming along nicely and how its flight model is at par with XP... it's just getting started.

Edited May 21, 2022 by lwt1971

[Greggy_D 936]

The Fenix is only 41 hours old and has yet to receive its first patch. I’d say they have done a stellar job up to this point (documentation not withstanding).

[320Driver 63]

1 hour ago, lwt1971 said:

and also I don't think it's really possible to have an add-on aircraft use a custom flight model completely external to MSFS, see https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/619099-fenix-nda-lifted-at-1200z/?do=findComment&comment=4776709

Hm, that's a pity. I wouldn't have much hope then to get e.g. the A320 flare logic correctly implemented. It's mandantory, a core element of A320 landings.

[lwt1971 7,417]

Just now, 320Driver said:

Hm, that's a pity. I wouldn't have much hope then to get e.g. the A320 flare logic correctly implemented. It's mandantory, a core element of A320 landings.

I think the landing and ground effect and other ground related handling (which I admit might not be exactly what you're talking about) will be better once Asobo implements proper ground physics... see their detailed answer below to what is coming in that space here from their recent dev Q&A: https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/live-dev-q-a-march-2nd-2022/503504

But it should still be well within Fenix's control to improve/override even ground handling (which many reviewers have said are pretty good) and especially anything above ground like flare logic... don't think that's an Asobo constraint.  Why exactly do you find wrong with Fenix's flare logic?
 

Forum Community Question - Any update on the revamped ground physics handling/friction? In a past Q&A, we mentioned it had been done. Can you go into more detail and what’s coming up in the future?

Seb - last year in Sim Update 7, there have been a few improvements on ground physics. I think one was related to an assistance. When you turn on assistance of ground rudder – basically it’s the thing when there’s a crosswind and propeller effects and the plane goes all over the place, and you have a hard time using the rudder to just stay straight – that is very tough. And then when you rotate, it changes a little bit because you don’t have the wheels that hold you a little bit in place anymore, and you have to do some rudder work again to stay more coordinated. On ground, you’re basically changing from one system, which is staying straight on the runway to staying coordinated in flight. You have to make the switch. The assistance takeoff rudder does that for you. And previously it was just switched off whenever you rotated. It made this hard transition when you take off. That’s something that has been fixed so that this assistance, instead of switching off instantly when you rotate, it gradually fades out over the first 200-300 feet once you take off. It doesn’t have this brutal thing where the rudder turns off instantly. And there’s other little tweaks and improvements on ground friction that we’ve been improving. Mostly for specific bug fixes on specific planes.

But still, there is a deeper rework we need to do. Basically, it all comes from heavy simplifications that were in the sim 10-15 years ago, which were always assuming that the ground was flat. That’s why you couldn’t have sloped runways or undulated runways. The ground friction model…basically when something’s on the ground and when the brakes are fully engaged, you don’t move at all: The plane sticks to the ground. There’s what one could call infinite friction: There’s no movement at all. This is something we added that didn’t exist at all. And it wasn’t really needed 10 years ago because there were no slopes. When you put a plane on a flat terrain without wind, it’s not going to roll anywhere. But if you put that same system on a slope, it’s going to roll away and not stay there.

There’s also wind. Historically, in the sim, there was a system so that at low speeds, any crosswind was cancelled out. The plane ignores any form of wind, when you’re below, maybe 5-10 feet/second, which is why when you’re stopped on the ground, you go full propeller power and then there’s some propeller effects, so the plane starts going left. And then, all of a sudden, the wind kicks in, and then if you have a strong crosswind, it does this sort of thing which is not realistic. In reality, if I have a plane on the ground, and there’s a strong wind, and I release all brakes, it’s going to start moving: The wind is going to push it. And that currently does not happen. There are changes like that that we want to do. We want to do the ground friction model to make it 100% realistic. Which means that we don’t have to do anything: We don’t have to cancel it out anymore. Everything is going to be realistically simulated from when you stop to when you take off. There’s no such thing as crosswind that comes in over a few knots. I think it’s going to make the rudder a little easier. You’re just fighting one crosswind. It doesn’t change over time unless there’s gusts. Also, it’s going to work better on slopes. This rework is planned for somewhere this year, whenever we have time to go into that. It’s going to be compatible because the parameters are the same. It doesn’t change anything in the way you define or create or make airplanes. It just changes the way all the constraints and forces are sold so that the plane does what it’s supposed to do. All the constraints are the friction, the ground friction, the prop wash, the wind, even the engine, which is slightly shaking the plane. All these things come together. Currently, it’s a little bit better because we worked more in a bug fix development system, where we said, “The plane is sliding on the slope? Let’s fix that.” “The plane is sliding when there’s wind? Let’s fix that” Now we’re in a situation where we need to implement a real system instead of having a block of patches. That’s basically the next step, and that will give us much more realism the precise moment when you rotate.

For example, a wheel is currently simulated as a single point. So, a wheel can resist movement or rolling or sliding when you brake. It does not resist rotation. A wheel can rotate [with a rudder or tiller] without resistance. If you’re in your car and you’re parked, and you turn the steering wheel, if you don’t have power steering, it’s not easy to turn the tire because it’s not a point: It’s a flat surface. It’s a patch on the ground of rubber that you’re moving. The new simulation is going to allow this. This helps with stability when you’re taking off. Currently, the plane is just a tripod of points, and as soon as the nose is up, you feel that it’s already twisting because the wheels are not simulated as patches of rubber. They do not resist rotation enough. These kinds of changes are going to make the moments of takeoff a lot more precise and realistic. Later this year.