Always thought with a smile...

[Gate99 246]

Ok, I'll throw my hat in the ring. It is a simulator. You can argue how good it is at simulating real world flying but it is in fact doing just that 🙂

Mark

 

[Noel 4,572]

9 hours ago, TrafficPilot said:

Of course it is a GAME. There is no way any real licensed professional Pilots would compare it to a proper flight simulator. I don't - and I've been flying real aircraft for 30 years.

MS/Asobo spent so much time and money making it look pretty that they appear to have forgotten about the core flight dynamics.

So in my eyes, for now at least, it is basically an "earth simulator" with lots of pretty toy aeroplanes to fly around in and enjoy the view. And it is a GREAT view. I can't deny that.

If they ever get around to working on the core flight dynamics and weather effects then maybe potential real-world pilots will look at it more seriously as a training aid.

Classic troll comments--over the top, exaggerated, unbalanced, lopsided, inflammatory because of its obvious bias and agenda and abject falsity in so many ways.   But...are these statements largely accurate, true?

GAME:  this is always used to denigrate; "simulator" and "game" really have no consensus definition so again the purpose here is only to inflame and denigrate.  It's the classic troller's hook in this genre.

Real licensed pro...proper flight simulator:  back in Dec 2021 this poll was posted in Hangar Chat--I doubt the significant majority of real world pilots experienced in the other sims who then preferred to use MSFS as their sim of choice has diminished at all I'd guess the poll if done today that % would grow even higher:

...at least [😂] it is basically an "earth simulator"..pretty toy aeroplanes  [😂] :  Well, we've gone into extreme shameless trollery now ain't we?! 

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by Noel

[ha5mvo 262]

8 minutes ago, Noel said:

Classic troll comments--over the top, exaggerated, unbalanced, lopsided, inflammatory because of its obvious bias and agenda and abject falsity in so many ways.   But...are these statements largely accurate, true?

GAME:  this is always used to denigrate; "simulator" and "game" really have no consensus definition so again the purpose here is only to inflame and denigrate.  It's the classic troller's hook in this genre.

Real licensed pro...proper flight simulator:  back in Dec 2021 this poll was posted in Hangar Chat--I doubt the significant majority of real world pilots experienced in the other sims who then preferred to use MSFS as their sim of choice has diminished at all I'd guess the poll if done today that % would grow even higher:

 

Your response seems to be unrelated to his comments, never mind all the huffing and puffing...

[David Mills 4,774]

Isn't the XP12 public beta supposed to be released by the end of July? There are only three days left in July. I can't wait to watch the first YouTube video showcasing side-by-side comparisons of XP12 vs. MSFS scenery and XP12 vs. MSFS performance. MSFS will prevail mightily on both counts.

[MrBitstFlyer 3,910]

50 minutes ago, David Mills said:

I can't wait to watch the first YouTube video showcasing side-by-side comparisons of XP12 vs. MSFS scenery

Why, what do you hope to achieve?

[Lord Farringdon 535]

On 7/21/2022 at 3:18 AM, David Mills said:

...... The retort that XP has a better "flight model" has become a Tourette-like, obsessive-compulsive, fetishistic tic from those watching an antiquated piece of software attempt a dead-cat bounce with the XP12 beta.

This made me laugh for entirely the wrong reason!!  I have a nearby neighbour who you have just described to a tee!! At every opportunity when I'm washing my Mustang in the driveway he stops and in a " tourette-like, obsessive-compulsive, fetishistic tic way, goes on and on about his ****ing zero emmissions Nissan Leaf. He may be right but he's still a *****.  Thanks for that David 😄.

Oh, and just in case you are of the electric fraternity, not everyone is like my neighbour!!  

Terry

Edited July 29, 2022 by Lord Farringdon

[Bdub22 1,639]

2 hours ago, David Mills said:

I can't wait to watch the first YouTube video showcasing side-by-side comparisons of XP12 vs. MSFS scenery and XP12 vs. MSFS performance. MSFS will prevail mightily on both counts.

I don't understand this kind of outlook. Having good flight simulator platforms benefits all of us. Why would you outwardly hope the demise of another flight simulator? I'm a big fan of MSFS and prefer it over X-Plane any day, but I don't understand you continued hatred for X-Plane. I hope X-Plane 12 comes out and it's way better than MSFS. That would only benefit us. Competition is good. Maybe cool your jets a little?

[abrams_tank 7,534]

 

1 hour ago, Bdub22 said:

I don't understand this kind of outlook. Having good flight simulator platforms benefits all of us. Why would you outwardly hope the demise of another flight simulator? I'm a big fan of MSFS and prefer it over X-Plane any day, but I don't understand you continued hatred for X-Plane. I hope X-Plane 12 comes out and it's way better than MSFS. That would only benefit us. Competition is good. Maybe cool your jets a little?

So to be clear, I don't want XP 12 to fail because having another simulator around to push MSFS, will just make the competition better, and it will make flight simulation better - on this point, we both agree.  And if XP 12 is ever better than MSFS according to my criteria (by the previews so far, it's not nearly as good as MSFS) and it's cheaper than MSFS (or the same cost), I would consider jumping ship to XP 12 myself - even though I find Austin to be very annoying.  However, me not wanting XP 12 to fail, and me forecasting that it has a strong chance of failing, are two different matters.  The business analyst in me, no matter how I look at the market, sees XP 12 has a huge hurdle to leap with the current state of MSFS, and the progress that MSFS is making.  And I have also been on record as saying that if XP 12 isn't "revolutionary," that it may soon go the way of other failed products (or XP will become a very small niche again in the home consumer PC market if Austin never gives up), because its main competitor now, MSFS, is simply that much more advanced than XP 11, and by the previews of XP 12 so far, MSFS also looks much more advanced than XP 12.

Having said that, in the "other" forum, it's a borderline cult like behavior, and really drags down Avsim. You have genuine people who are interested in XP 12, but when they go to that forum to enquire or discuss it, and provide even the most remote criticism of it, the "cult" will have a backlash.  You cannot criticize XP at all in that forum.

These aren't my words. They are the words of Claviateur, who appears to use both MSFS and XP, about the XP posters in the XP forum:

  Quote

Sadly, this is the weird feeling I was talking about... It's like a cult behavior... It's like let's find a little tiny thing in the other cult and make it a big issue..  What we have is ok...The same there is a big deal... And let's play down or deny things there because they do not serve our cult interest or agenda and let's twist things to make our cult always superior and feel good about ourselves in it... 

While the whole discussion is simply about world engine technology for entertainment flight simulation that is obviously evolving like everything else... 🙄

•  

The "cult behavior" Claviateur is referring to the XP posters in the XP forum. It's interesting how someone that is neutral like Claviateur, goes to the "other" forum, participates in it for a while, and comes away with this conclusion.  

Conversely, people here in the MSFS forum, if they are genuine with the criticism of MSFS (and not deliberately trolling), these criticisms are usually accepted. For example, in the current clouds thread here in the MSFS forum, there is genuine criticism of how the clouds got worse after SU 7 or so when MSFS integrated with METAR, and the clouds were better on release.  I don't think anybody is disputing that fact. But if you bring up facts in the "other" forum, they sometimes reject facts, oddly like a cult, and it makes it hard for people genuinely interested in discussing XP, to have a rational discussion.

 

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by abrams_tank

[abrams_tank 7,534]

4 hours ago, David Mills said:

Isn't the XP12 public beta supposed to be released by the end of July? There are only three days left in July. I can't wait to watch the first YouTube video showcasing side-by-side comparisons of XP12 vs. MSFS scenery and XP12 vs. MSFS performance. MSFS will prevail mightily on both counts.

I am very interested in the final performance of XP 12.  In fact, I am guessing that the delay of XP 12 could be related to LR trying to optimize XP 12, to get more FPS out of it.

From the many previews shown of XP 12, even when Austin was streaming it, the FPS counter was not shown, so we don't have a scientific way to measure the FPS of it.  From my observation of some of the preview videos though, including the live streaming of XP 12, including the live stream about 2 weeks ago when Austin and Orbx had that interview, there seems to be a bit of choppiness in XP 12, and it was not very smooth.  I am doubting that XP 12 has good FPS, like the way MSFS has, based on the preview videos and live streams I have seen so far.

For this reason, I think one of the biggest tasks the LR team has left, is how to optimize XP 12 to get more FPS out of it.  Unfortunately for LR and XP 12, their main competitor, MSFS, has very good FPS for a flight simulator at the moment, and with DLSS coming in SU 10, some people (not all, but some) may get even better FPS from MSFS. Having said that, I am skeptical if they will be able to match MSFS in FPS, even though from the previews so far, XP 12 graphics are not as good  as MSFS (in general, the game with the better graphics should have lower FPS so if XP 12's graphics are not as good as MSFS, it should have higher FPS than MSFS).  This goes back to my past comments that XP 12 has a lot of "technical debt" built up over the years. I think that technical debt is making it hard for LR to get more FPS out of XP 12.

And this is what makes MSFS so amazing.  Not only does it have such high level of graphics for a flight simulator, but it also has such good FPS for it as well.

Edited July 29, 2022 by abrams_tank

[Krakin 5,903]

3 hours ago, Bdub22 said:

I don't understand this kind of outlook. Having good flight simulator platforms benefits all of us. Why would you outwardly hope the demise of another flight simulator? I'm a big fan of MSFS and prefer it over X-Plane any day, but I don't understand you continued hatred for X-Plane. I hope X-Plane 12 comes out and it's way better than MSFS. That would only benefit us. Competition is good. Maybe cool your jets a little?

Saying MSFS is going to prevail in a couple of areas is not the same as wishing the demise of X-Plane 12.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Krakin

[lwt1971 7,517]

13 hours ago, ha5mvo said:

Since I'm not familiar with WT (?) , what plane did they make?

https://www.workingtitle.aero/about

The team that did the CJ4 and avionics mods that then eventually got hired by MS/Asobo to be part of the MSFS dev team.

[ha5mvo 262]

4 minutes ago, lwt1971 said:

https://www.workingtitle.aero/about

The team that did the CJ4 and avionics mods that then eventually got hired by MS/Asobo to be part of the MSFS dev team.

Those are GPS units they are making. How on earth does this relate to flight dynamics?

[lwt1971 7,517]

1 minute ago, ha5mvo said:

Those are GPS units they are making. How on earth does this relate to flight dynamics?

Read again, more carefully this time. Not just avionics, they also did the CJ4 jet mod: https://www.workingtitle.aero/packages/cj4/ .... regardless, just because a dev specializes in avionics, that doesn't mean they only know that. Matt also has insights into the whole of MSFS and its codebase, as they're part of the core dev team now.

[abrams_tank 7,534]

32 minutes ago, ha5mvo said:

Those are GPS units they are making. How on earth does this relate to flight dynamics?

Matt Nichan, the lead of Working Title, is very knowledgeable about flight models for fight simulators. You can see his understanding of both the XP flight model, and MSFS flight model here:

More comments from Matt on the flight model:

And more comment from Matt here:

https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/more-physics-more-real-winds/372656/256

Edited July 29, 2022 by abrams_tank

[Bobsk8 12,944]

5 hours ago, Bdub22 said:

I hope X-Plane 12 comes out and it's way better than MSFS. 

That will never happen, you can't roll back the clock no matter how hard you try.