32 minutes ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

So if a pilot uses the same sim to practice, but not as part of a check ride, it becomes a game? 

V1 Simulations released a video in the Fenix A320 where he setup for random failures.  The failure he got in MSFS required the same flows, checklists and FMC programming. He used the same navigation data as the real world and made the same calculations regarding aircraft performance and airport data - he was simulating flying the A320 and he was simulating a failure.

 

 

Well..We call it sim, I call it sim. But whatever we call it in  a technical sense it's "game" that can be a training aid. Neither MSFS nor XP out of the box are certified to be use as official training device. If that would be case my recurring instrument proficiency training would become significantly cheaper 🙂 

Another thread that is meaningless and just designed to stir the pot....There will probably be another one tomorrow....LOL

Pretty much Bob, its a time waster.

Of course it is a GAME. There is no way any real licensed professional Pilots would compare it to a proper flight simulator. I don't - and I've been flying real aircraft for 30 years.

MS/Asobo spent so much time and money making it look pretty that they appear to have forgotten about the core flight dynamics.

So in my eyes, for now at least, it is basically an "earth simulator" with lots of pretty toy aeroplanes to fly around in and enjoy the view. And it is a GREAT view. I can't deny that.

If they ever get around to working on the core flight dynamics and weather effects then maybe potential real-world pilots will look at it more seriously as a training aid.

 

 

54 minutes ago, TrafficPilot said:

MS/Asobo spent so much time and money making it look pretty that they appear to have forgotten about the core flight dynamics.

Lol ya no.... "forgotten about core flight dynamics" is farcical nonsense. Here, educate yourself: https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/msfs-flight-models-aerodynamics-etc/526532 , and note what actual experts like Matt Nischan of WT says.

MS/Asobo sure seem to be doing unnecessary things if their main aim is to just create an earth simulator game while forgetting about flight dynamics, things such as CFD modelling and solving Navier Stokes equations as detailed in https://docs.flightsimulator.com/flighting/html/Developer_Mode/Aircraft_Editor/Debug/Debug_Aircraft_CFD.htm, or including class leading realistic avionics like the G1000 Nxi in the sim, etc etc.

I get that some try to frame flight sim products as either having to provide realistic flight dynamics or realistic visuals, but MSFS has handily shown that *both* are doable in a sim... have that cake, and eat it too.
 

Edited July 28, 20223 yr by lwt1971

Anyone remember 2001 when people were calling for desktop flight simulators to be banned? Call it what it is, a game. I enjoy this hobby. 

2 hours ago, lwt1971 said:

Lol ya no.... "forgotten about core flight dynamics" is farcical nonsense. Here, educate yourself: https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/msfs-flight-models-aerodynamics-etc/526532 , and note what actual experts like Matt Nischan of WT says.

MS/Asobo sure seem to be doing unnecessary things if their main aim is to just create an earth simulator game while forgetting about flight dynamics, things such as CFD modelling and solving Navier Stokes equations as detailed in https://docs.flightsimulator.com/flighting/html/Developer_Mode/Aircraft_Editor/Debug/Debug_Aircraft_CFD.htm, or including class leading realistic avionics like the G1000 Nxi in the sim, etc etc.
 

I haven't claimed to be an expert. I know that I am a reasonably competent and a safe Pilot and am basing my comments purely on how it feels to fly a real aircraft and how they are attempting to replicate that in FS2020. I have no interest in software programming. I'm sure the people you mention above are very talented in their particular field.

My particular field of interest and experience is flying real aircraft. And right now in my opinion FS2020 does not replicate that particularly well.

Will "SU10" make things any better? Lets hope so!

 

1 minute ago, TrafficPilot said:

I haven't claimed to be an expert. I know that I am a reasonably competent and a safe Pilot and am basing my comments purely on how it feels to fly a real aircraft and how they are attempting to replicate that in FS2020. I have no interest in software programming. I'm sure the people you mention above are very talented in their particular field.

My particular field of interest and experience is flying real aircraft. And right now in my opinion FS2020 does not replicate that particularly well.

Ok fair enough.. what aircraft have you tried in the sim that leads you to conclude that Asobo has forgotten about core flight dynamics?

6 hours ago, TrafficPilot said:

Of course it is a GAME. There is no way any real licensed professional Pilots would compare it to a proper flight simulator. I don't - and I've been flying real aircraft for 30 years.

Of course it is a simulator.  When simulating flying a GA or airline flying, I go through exactly the same planning process as I would in the real aircraft. I use Foreflight and an almost exact replica of the GTN 750 in the simulated cockpit. I use the same weather resources that I would in the real aircraft. The whole world's surface is covered in satellite imagery, enabling realistic VFR procedure to be followed anywhere.

IFR flying is also simulated accurately in the simulator, using the same up to date Airac data in use in the real world.  Aircraft like the Fenix A320 simulate many of the systems and failures In the real aircraft. There are plenty of real pilots demonstrating using their company sops and actual real documentation.

I do not agree at all that a piece of software can only be called a simulator if it is being used by a real world pilot for training.  

Whenever I re-visit this thread I always end up with that, "You say tomato, I say tomato," song stuck in my head for some odd reason. 

4 hours ago, TrafficPilot said:

I haven't claimed to be an expert.

No, you were most definitely claiming to be an expert when you arrogantly boasted, "There is no way any real licensed professional Pilots would compare it to a proper flight simulator. I don't - and I've been flying real aircraft for 30 years." To me, that sounds like a claim of expertise.

@lwt1971 rebutted your post far better than I could. But you still haven't addressed the issues he raised and answered the question he posed to you. 

 

Edited July 28, 20223 yr by David Mills

55 minutes ago, Dermot McClusky said:

Whenever I re-visit this thread I always end up with that, "You say tomato, I say tomato," song stuck in my head for some odd reason. 

I always think of "Yada Yada Yada"....

5 hours ago, TrafficPilot said:

I haven't claimed to be an expert. I know that I am a reasonably competent and a safe Pilot and am basing my comments purely on how it feels to fly a real aircraft and how they are attempting to replicate that in FS2020. I have no interest in software programming. I'm sure the people you mention above are very talented in their particular field.

My particular field of interest and experience is flying real aircraft. And right now in my opinion FS2020 does not replicate that particularly well.

Will "SU10" make things any better? Lets hope so!

 

So if you feel that way, why are you flying MSFS.. ? Sounds like you should get another sim, that fits your needs better. 

Edited July 28, 20223 yr by Bobsk8

8 hours ago, lwt1971 said:

Lol ya no.... "forgotten about core flight dynamics" is farcical nonsense. Here, educate yourself: https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/msfs-flight-models-aerodynamics-etc/526532 , and note what actual experts like Matt Nischan of WT says.

 

Since I'm not familiar with WT (?) , what plane did they make?

"It's a game not a real simulator like my beloved xplane. Anything Austin says means he is 100% right and nothing can compete."

Also Xplane users https://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?/files/file/34231-star-trek-borg-cube-2365-ad/